203: Storytelling as a Business Superpower, Even When You Think You Have Nothing to Say with Jen Olmstead

Sabrina: On today’s episode of the Shoot It Straight podcast, I’m talking with my friend Jen Olmstead of Tonic Site Shop, and we are talking about storytelling. This episode is so good. I want you to grab your pen, I want you to grab your paper, because she is giving us actual steps to make us better storytellers, and listener, they’re easy.

You have totally got this. So if you have ever been someone who admires people who are really great at storytelling and wish that you could do better and wish that could be you, this is the episode for you because Jen is literally telling you how to do it. And there’s a really fun part in the episode where we kind of do a live breakout where I share a story that she’s never heard before, and she breaks it down and tells me exactly how she would turn it into a really epic business email, and it’s really, really cool.

So let’s dive in. I cannot wait for you to hear this episode from Jen Olmstead

Welcome to Shoot It Straight, the podcast for women building businesses and lives they actually want. I’m Sabrina Gebhardt, and around here we believe in clarity over hustle, alignment over burnout, and giving yourself permission to want more, more ease, more beauty, more income, more space to live. So if you’re ready to grow without losing yourself in the process, you’re in the right place Welcome back to the Shoot It Straight podcast, my friends.

Today we have a new guest. I’m so excited to bring her. Can’t wait to see where this chat goes. We’ve got my friend Jen Olmstead. She’s the co-founder of Tonic Site Shop, which is, in case you’re under a rock, it is a website template shop for creative entrepreneurs, and my sexy new website is a Tonic site template, and I am obsessed with her.

Uh, I met Jen at the Creative Educator Conference last year, and then I got to reconnect with her this year, which is so fun, so fun, and I immediately was like, “Jen, I need to have you on the podcast. We need to talk,” and she was like, “Yes, let’s do that,” which is so amazing. So here we are. Uh, before we go further, my friend, will you give yourself a proper introduction to the audience?

Jen: Yeah, I’m Jen. Um, like, uh, we basically help you design a prettier rock to live under. So if you are living under a rock, and you’re, like, slightly ashamed of how that rock looks on the internet, we provide a better space for that. Um, my business partner, Jeff, and I, we started Tonic in 2013 because we were custom designers, and at the time, template, you said the word template like it was an STD.

You know, you’re like, “Gross, like, you have a template?” And we wanted to change that. So now, you know, 13 years later, we’ve evolved, the internet’s evolved, and yet one thing hasn’t really changed is, like, we wanna provide entrepreneurs with a space that they feel great about showing up in because as you know, when you have a sexy new website, you’re like, “I have a sexy new website,” and that energy changes things.

So that’s what I do, but I’m also a huge nerd. I’m a huge marketing nerd. Why we’re talking today is that you’re like, “You have the weirdest stories,” and I was like, “Yes, I do.” So I’m, I’m excited to just hang out and, and chat through stories and design, and we’ll see where this conversation goes.

Sabrina: Yeah, it’s gonna be great.

Also, side note, we missed Jeff this year at Creative Educator Conference. How dare he?

Jen: Jeff, Jeff, I will tell him. Yeah, he had a very sick doggy.

Sabrina: Oh.

Jen: Um, dog lovers, like, don’t, don’t fault Jeff. He had a very sick pu- sick puppy, and so, um, he, he was at home being a very good dog dad, but we missed him for sure.

Sabrina: Life happens. Yeah, he sent me a message afterward, and he was like, “Oh, I have FOMO,” and I’m like, “We missed you. You are not allowed to miss again.” Life happens. It does. You know? It does. It does. It happens. Okay, we’re gonna dive straight in because as you said, you’ve got hilarious stories, and you are a storyteller extraordinaire.

For the listeners, if you are not on the Tonic email list and getting Jen’s emails, what are you even doing? They are so… What are you doing? They’re so fun to read, and getting to see you speak a couple of times and the way that you tell stories, um, in front of an audience is just incredible, and we’re gonna talk about this.

You’ve got some wild stories. I’ve heard you tell a story about literally physically chasing a bus. And also about the fact that you grew up on an ostrich farm, which is about as random as it gets. So- What is it about your life that, like, generates material? I mean, you just have all of this material. Are you, like, a magnet for chaos or do you just notice things better than everybody else?

Jen: I would say the answer to that is just yes, like a sheer across the board yes. Yes, I do tend to be a chaos magnet. One of my favorite compliments I’ve ever received is one of my best friends in college was like, “I just feel like you’re gonna die in a really interesting way.” Like, like trapped underneath the arm of, like, a toll booth or something

I was like, “Thank you so much.”

Sabrina: Um- Yeah. Uh, that tracks. That tracks.

Jen: Yeah, so I do have just, like, an abundance of things that happen and I think it’s because, like, I have strong opinions, I have, like, an absurd amount of confidence, like bordering on delusion that, you know, as entrepreneurs we kind of have to have.

Yep. Like a horrible case of undiagnosed ADHD. I’m like the oldest daughter of three brothers, so I think I can do anything. I think I can, like, charm anyone. And so therefore, I get myself into just, like, horrifying situations all the time. You know, it’s just a cocktail of disaster So my friends know this, like the craziest things happen.

But what I have found, and as you just kind of alluded to, is it’s not that stuff. Like, yes, you know, I did grow up on an ostrich farm, so that like no one else has that story. Like, I have the funnest, like the weirdest fun fact in the room at all times. Um, it’s great. Like, that’s a great flex. But I have just found that like it’s often not the weird stories ’cause I think most people in this situation, they’re like, “Oh, Jen, I could like never tell stories like you ’cause nothing crazy happens to me.

Like, you have the craziest things happen.” And that’s what I’ve just been so interested to find is, is not true. Like, yes, you don’t have to be a chaos magnet. You don’t have to like really go to jail three times a week. Like, you can tell great stories even if your life is super boring. And, and that’s to your second point.

It’s really in the noticing. What could make a great story? What could be an email? Like, what’s a piece of content hiding? And that’s become like a really fun treasure hunt.

Sabrina: You’re s- you’re so good at it. Like I said, regular emails from you, weekly or sometimes more than weekly, and I’m like and every single one has got great stories.

I’m like she’s just– they’re just pouring out of you, which is so fun. Most of my audience is they’re family photographers. The listeners of this audience, we do have a lot of other creative entrepreneurs that are not in the photography space, but they’re women in business. Tons of them are moms. They hear the word storytelling, and they immediately think, “Nah, this is not me.

My life is not interesting enough. It is boring.” What do you say to that woman who genuinely thinks that like nothing notable has ever happened to them?

Jen: Well, I think there’s a difference between notable and relatable. Um, and I think it’s very tricky to think like, “Well, this isn’t that interesting. This isn’t that unusual,” or like, “Wow, nothing fascinating is happening.”

And to that, I’m always just like, “No one wants to hear about your trip to Dubai.” The, really the power of storytelling is taking something that’s not that interesting and making it to a story ’cause the r- like the reality is most of us don’t have super exciting lives. And really what makes a great email is the boring stuff.

You know, like one of the most popular emails I’ve ever sent was about a cricket that was in my garage, and it was like driving me insane. And who among us hasn’t been terrorized by like a- Getting sound. You know, that’s relatable. And really, a good story, it needs to have a little bit of friction. We can talk about that in a second, like what a great story needs to have.

But it needs to have some sort of friction, and we have friction every moment of our day, espe- if you are a family photographer, you have constant friction, right? Your clients have constant friction. They have children. Children are just friction. Um, I wrote an email once about my, like my sweet two-year-old son, Mason, and he was trying so hard to tell me what he wanted.

And he was, like, holding me by the hand, like, in tears, asking me for the animal things over and over, like in a sweet little toddler voice, and I have no idea what he wanted. And I’m, like, trying to figure out. Well, it turned out he wanted chicken nuggets. Like

Sabrina: Makes sense,

Jen: obviously. No idea. And he liked dinosaur shaped, so it was like a very specific chicken nugget.

But I was like, who, we’ve all had clients that had something specific in their mind that they wanted, and they’re trying to tell us, and we’re like, “Are you speaking English?” So there was this, like, universal Relatable part and in like, in my toddler asking for lunch. You know? So there’s always something, you just have to find out, like, what is relatable?

What’s universal in this story?

Sabrina: That is such a great point, thinking about relatability instead of, like, the wild, unusual stories. Because here’s the thing, like, the wild, unusual stories are fun. I mean, I’ve heard you tell some, and they’re fun, and they’re engaging, and if you, you know, learn to tell them properly, they can be great.

But that’s not what we have every single day, right? We have just regular lives and relatable moments. And, uh, it’s funny that you say that because I just had a guest in one of my groups yesterday talking, we were talking about content creation, and she was talking about how we’re overthinking it as business owners, and we need to bring it back to relatability, and it’s the little, tiny things, right, that make it relatable.

You know, like having a bad day and then what am I gonna do? I’m gonna ba- blast Taylor Swift and go to Pilates. You know what I mean? And that’s, like, relatable, right?

Jen: Yeah. It is. It is the, it is the cure. And so that’s, I, I think two of the most popular, like, most powerful words in the English language are just, “Me too.”

Like, “Wow, same. I’ve had that happen before.” So if I’m telling a story about the ostrich farm, literally no one is like, “Me too, girl.” Like, “Oh,” like, “Same, same.” Like, that doesn’t happen. But you know, I wrote an email this week that was like… I must have gotten over 100 email responses to. And that is absurd. So if you’re not, like, an email marketer, you’re like, “Oh, 100 email responses.”

No, no, that’s like when that’s like, oh, something like, we really touched a nerve. You know, so like that email was literally about me dropping a bag of rice in my pantry and the bag spilled. And I wrote 2,000 words you know, about this, but so many people were like, “Oh my gosh, been there.” Like, “Why is packaging so terrible?”

And I turned it into a really, a story about, like, how packaging matters. And so, like, sometimes we can’t see, like, the fault line of, like, the bag that was going to explode, and that can be, like, our website, it could be our marketing, whatever. So there was something universal, but also so many people were like, “Oh.”

Like, “Why do they make the rice packages out of that material?” Like, universal bonding internet moment of, like, all of us being like, we are in this together. And any time you do that, you build relationship with your audience, and that’s what I want, is I want them to be like, “Hey, my friend Jen, whose rice bag exploded, she makes really great websites.”

And I’m gonna be the person that they think of. When they see a bag of rice, they’re gonna be like, “I’ve gotta text this picture to Jen because, like, she has to see that they’re selling the same bag of rice.” Like, that is powerful marketing. That’s what we want, is relatability, not notability, relatability.

Sabrina: Yeah, I love that When we’re thinking about storytelling specifically from the lens of our business, like it’s going to our email newsletter, or we’re sharing about it, uh, in content creation or whatever, or on our website, is it about the drama or excitement of some- of a moment, or is it r- are we really just leaning heavily on the relatability factor?

Like, what’s the framework to crafting taking a story and tying it into your business?

Jen: Okay, yeah. So the first part of the fra- the framework is just- Find the friction. You know? Like, FF. Like, find the friction point, ’cause every good story has conflict. Like, think of every good TV show. There’s some sort of a conflict, otherwise it would be boring.

Like, this is why people watch Real Housewives. I don’t personally, no judgment. But like, it’s because there’s constant conflict, and inherently that’s entertaining to us. Like, we love to watch a train wreck. We also, you know, you’ve … E- everyone has heard this now ’cause of Instagram, when you open a loop, like when you tell the beginning of a story, people have to see how it plays out.

And so that’s where, you know, storytelling, I think the common stat is that stories are 22 times more memorable than facts. And so any time you can tell a story, you can get people to take a moment out of their day and pay attention. Like, that’s what you can do if you can do it well. So then you have to do the framework.

So the, the first part of the framework is, like, you have to have a conflict. What is the conflict? Is the conflict, like, the bag was made out of faulty material? Is the conflict, like, the bus was leaving without me? Is the conflict, like, you were late for the appointment? Is the conflict, like, you were having a really bad day?

You know, my, my son couldn’t figure out … like, couldn’t communicate what he wanted. Like, there is some friction, so that has to be the number one. Find the friction. The second part, and this is where most people get it wrong, um, is they don’t start in the middle of the story. And so every single email that I get that I instantly delete is like, “Dear Jen, I can’t wait to tell you what happened last Thursday.

It was the craziest thing, and I’m gonna also tell you how it relates to your business,” and I am already out. You know? So if you say, “It was 11:59 PM, I’m covered in bacon grease, and I had no idea when my morning started that it would end this way,” I am locked in. I, I am yours forever. Like, I … How did you get covered in bacon grease?

So yeah, so video people call this the pope in the pool. You start with the dead body. Like, White Lotus starts the way it does for a reason. You’re like, “Someone’s dead.” So I’m always like, “Who is dead in the story?” Like, p- just delete your introduction. Like, delete it. Do not … If you- You don’t even have to say my name.

Just start in the middle of the story. Go. So find the friction, start in the middle of the story. And then the next part is that really good storytelling takes the universal and makes it specific. And so good storytelling is like, um, you don’t just say you’re shopping for produce. You say you’re shopping for a zucchini.

Like, zucchini’s a funny word. That’s just, like, adding those details, making it specific. Like, I was wearing my favorite powdered blue sweater, which never saw it coming. You know, whatever it is But then good marketing takes the, the specific and makes it universal. And so as you’re writing, the reality is, like, no one cares about me.

People care about themselves. They are self- we are self-interested people. So there has to be something in it for the person who’s reading it, and it can’t just be entertainment. And so that’s one of the most common compliments I get from our emails is, like, “I knew that I could trust you to, like, turn this around and I would get something from it.”

And so there has to be a promise of, like, there, this is not just about me. At some point, this is gonna be universal. And so usually I kind of ask the question, and this is the kind of important final step is, like, what is this story really about? What is this… What about this story doesn’t make it unique to me, but is like something that everyone has experienced or gone through or could relate to?

So for example, with the, my exploding rice in my pantry, the email that I wrote last week, what about that? That could be an email about a huge mess in your business, and like cleaning it up by yourself, and how that sucks. You know? Like, you’re overwhelmed. It could be an email about packaging, because, like, that’s relatable.

It’s like you chose something based on packaging, you didn’t get what you wanted, and then, like, all of a sudden, like, the contents are exploding and you’re covered in rice and regret. Like, that’s that’s a universal feeling. Um, so what is the universal thing that would make this story really matter to someone else?

And for me, it usually is like, what am I trying to sell, you know? Mm-hmm. So if you’re a family photographer and you’re trying to sell peace of mind, you can reverse engineer. Like, what is the last time you definitely did not have peace of mind, and you realized, like, this is gonna be a shit show, and you signed up for something you shouldn’t have done?

Like, that would be very relatable to, to your audience. So something about taking the specific and making universal, that’s really what makes your stories stick for your audience.

Sabrina: Those are such good tips. Literally such good tips, and they’re all easy to understand, right? They’re not, like, vague. They’re very, very, very clear, very easy to understand.

Delete your

Jen: introduction. Yeah. It’s very clear, guys. Like, do not, please do not send me an email with an introduction.

Sabrina: Yes. And this is a silly little example, but I, my audience knows that earlier this year I decided that I was gonna jump on the TikTok bandwagon and, like, just start having fun over there.

It’s like a little hobby. I am not showing up as my business over there. It’s just for fun. Just sharing things. It’s literally a hobby. And, uh, just yesterday I recorded something and I was going off, having, like, a crash-out about, um, having a high school senior and how- emotional it is. Highs and lows, highs and lows, highs and lows, but also absolutely chaotic and so expensive.

And so I recorded this whole long thing, and then when I was editing it and chopping out all the ums and the pauses and whatever, I deleted the beginning and I took the middle and I put it in the beginning and started that way. And, uh, is it going viral? Yes. Yes it is.

Jen: Exactly. People do not want the lead in.

Give them the meat and then go back. And so it, when you read my emails, it’ll often happen is I start telling you like the climax of the story, and then I’m like, “Let me back up Three hours earlier. I guess you need to understand the context. Like that thing or like starting in the middle of a dialogue, and so the riots email, I start with like me making a grocery list, and then like what was going on in my head.

And you’re reading it and the first word you read is like cucumber, radish, and you’re like, like what is this?

Sabrina: Yeah, what is this? Yeah.

Jen: Yeah. Like what have I… What did I accidentally click into? But when you do that, you know, the, the most common like comment that I got on Friday was like, “I didn’t plan to read this whole thing,” but I am-

And I’m like, tricked people into reading again. Like, yes.

Sabrina: Yes, yes. Okay, I love that.

Jen: Yeah, ’cause like, you know, we have short attention spans, so if you can make someone read in this day and age, like that is like wizard level power. Like that’s what we’re looking for.

Sabrina: Yes, yes. Okay, so I wanna circle back to the ostrich farm.

Oh, yeah. Okay? Because people are listening and they’re like, “Wait a minute, what are you, what are you-

Jen: Did you just breeze past that?

Sabrina: Did you… Yeah, did you, did you even know there are ostrich farms? There are. Um, so on paper, an ostrich farm and growing up there has absolutely nothing to do with selling website templates or business at all really, but yet I’ve seen, I’ve personally seen you talk about it and share it from a business marketing perspective.

So how do you take, when we do have a wild story to share, how do you bridge a wild, unrelatable story into something that your audience actually cares about?

Jen: Totally. Yeah, so a- and this is where you have to find the connection point between you or what you’re experiencing in that story or what the story is about, and like something that they can relate to.

Because like yes, did everyone else grow up in the ostrich farm? No. It’s, uh, technically an ostrich ranch. My brother’s gonna listen to this and be like, “Why are you saying farm?” Like…

Sabrina: Excuse me, I’m so sorry, Jen’s brother.

Jen: Very different, very different. Um, this is Texas. You don’t have farms, you have ranches.

Like that’s a point of pride. Um, yeah, it’s probably like, yeah. Anyway, so on the ostrich ranch, you know, if you look at the c- the qualities of ostriches, right? Ostriches, and I think I talk about this, you saw in my talk, I talk about like ostriches are crazy. They are actually, it kind of sounds like they’re an apex predator, because they’re like 350 pounds, they can run 60 miles an hour, they’re up to nine feet tall, they’re one of the only animals that can kill a lion.

I mean, they are like, you hear this and you’re like, damn, like this is an impressive animal. But then the problem is that their eye is literally bigger than their brain.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jen: Their brain is the size of a walnut, and so anything can kill an ostrich. You know, literally anything. They can like run like 60 miles an hour into the side of a barn and die.

Um, they’re c- they’re ragey all the time, possibly ’cause they can’t fly. And so there’s this, there’s this strange oddity of like so much talent, so much like natural ability, but then they spend all their time, time running around, and they never get off the ground. And that right there is where we can relate because entrepreneurs, we have s- we have so many superpowers, right?

Like, we can run really fast. We are, like, we can pivot on a dime. We’re creative. Like, we have much larger brains than ostriches, and yet we can, like, spend so much of our time running around in circles, like doing the same things over or trying to get off the ground, and it never really happens. And, and so that’s, that was the rel- relatability of like, here was something.

Like, when I was chasing the bus through the, the terminal in DC, everyone has related to the fact of like, I’m chasing after something and I can’t catch it. I mean, I’m running as fast as I can, and I can’t… I’d never did I understand the correlation between these stories until just this exact moment. I, like, I love a chase, I guess.

But the, that was relatable, and so if it’s a wild story, you have to find the thing that makes it not wild. What is the thing everyone has experienced? How can you take something specific and make it universal?

Sabrina: Do you think there’s a, a common way that people are getting this wrong, where they’re trying to connect a bur- a personal story to a business point, and it feels forced and it doesn’t have that seamless…

Like, is there something common that we’re doing wrong there?

Jen: Absolutely. This is my biggest pet peeve. I call this the pivot, by the way, in like, in my emails. I’m like, “Okay, like, this is the pivot.” That’s what I, at least I mentally think of it. When the pivot feels forced, and they’re like, “I’m sure you felt this way, too,” and you’re like, “No.

No, I have not, and it’s very clear that you’re just gonna sell me something.” Like, that’s… No. So you really have to think through, like, what is something, like, what is the reality that someone might actually be struggling with that’s similar to this? This is not just a pitch, right? This is not just a, “And that’s why you need my product.”

Yeah. There has to be something in it for them, and so w- what my emails typically follow the formula of like, here’s the story, here’s the pivot, here’s g- the give where I’m, like, literally gonna give you free advice or something that isn’t just my product, and then here’s a product that’s the solution. So when there’s no give, when it’s just a pivot to sell, that’s when you’re like, “Ugh” I just read this whole story for this?

Like, I just wasted my time, and all you’re gonna do is ask for my money. So I think there has to be a give first. There has to be a pivot to a give, and then there has to be a, an offer that’s the solution. But that’s my, that’s my biggest pet peeve. I’m like, ugh, damn it, you got me again.

Sabrina: Yeah. Yeah. Is, is the give something small?

Jen: Yeah, it can be small.

Sabrina: Is it something that you repeat? Is it something… Yeah, like tell me more about that.

Jen: Yeah. So the give, like for example, like going back to the rice email, it was like, here’s some… Like, we don’t often see the fault lines in our own packaging. Like we’re- the things where like, it’s something is broken and the rice is spilling out, sometimes it takes someone else, like, looking at it.

So it’s like, here are three places where often, like, we’re missing it, and like, where our brands can be leaking rice, and here’s, like, how to self-audit that. If you need a better packaging for your… You know that, like, your packaging is broken and you need a better solution, here’s Tonik website templates.

Like, we’re the perfect container. Like, we’ve fault tested everything. We’ve dropped the bag 20 times so you don’t have to. That’s a different thing than just like, “Your bag probably sucks. Here’s Tonik.”

Sabrina: Right.

Jen: You know?

Sabrina: Right, right.

Jen: Like, okay, rude. Like, thank

Sabrina: you. Definitely, definitely. Okay. So you told me before we got going that you love to kind of do this live and take a story and spin it for people.

Um, and I told you that the first story that comes to mind for me is I do have a little bit of a wild unusual story, and I have heard from friends before, they’re like, “You have got to write an email about that,” and I’m like, “But I don’t know how to apply this to business.” So I’m… You have not heard this story.

I’m gonna- Yeah, we should

Jen: clarify. This isn’t one of those like set up for-

Sabrina: This is truly live … you to fail. She does not have any idea what I’m about to say, so I’m literally putting her on the spot. I’m gonna tell you the story, and then I’m gonna let you take over and take what you want from it, okay?

Okay. So what year was this? This was probably 2000- Four, and I had just been promoted in my corporate job to being a buyer, ‘kay? So I was finally, like, a boss, and I had staff and I was… I had been fast-tracked in my career. I was very good at what I did, and I leapfrogged over some people. And almost immediately upon my promotion, we were going overseas for a buying trip, um, and we were going to Hong Kong.

I got to go on this business trip, and I loved my boss, loved my coworkers, and we were being taken out to dinner to a true sushi restaurant in Hong Kong, okay? So, like, not American sushi, right? Really nice restaurant, and the vendor that was taking us out, um, we were sitting at, like, the s- the sushi bar, um, which seems weird for, like, a business dinner, but, like, that’s the most elite place to sit in a restaurant.

They put us there for a reason. And so we’re sitting in a long line, and it’s the vendor and then our president and then another buyer, then myself, and, uh, another coworker next to me. All of a sudden, the girl, the other buyers with me start giggling, and I’m like, “What is happening?” They’ve been on this trip before.

They know what’s about to happen, and I, being the newbie, have no idea what’s about to happen. I am 24 years old, okay? I am not married yet. I’m a young thing, so I’m very naive. Uh, and I’ve never been to Asia before, so this is all new to me. And all of a sudden, I look down and I see this vendor is, has a big, what looks like a fishbowl, but it’s, like, black, so you can’t see what’s inside, but it’s the shape of a fishbowl, and he’s handing it, he’s passing it down the row to the president next.

And I see the president take his chopsticks, and he fishes something out and puts it in his mouth, and I’m like, “What is happening?”

Jen: Oh my goodness.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. So tradition is that before your meal, they pass this bowl, and it is filled with live fish. And you are to catch it with chopsticks and eat it, and it, it’s, like, a respect thing.

I think this might have been the first time I’d ever used chopsticks, number one.

Jen: Oh my goodness.

Sabrina: Number two, I’m the newest baby here, and also, like, this is a, like, a moment of you don’t mess this up. This is, like, a respect situation.

Jen: Yeah, everything is on the line right now. Like, y- years of history and legacy have led us to this moment.

Sabrina: Yes. So the whole group does it, and it gets to me, and all eyes are on me, and the girl next to me is just giggling, and I’m literally thinking to myself Well, here goes nothing. I hope this goes well. And I take my chopsticks, and I, looks like I’m holding them right, and I reach in, and this thing is swimming.

Jen: Is there only one? Is there one

Sabrina: fish in this bowl? There’s sev- there’s several in there. Okay, okay, okay. They’re small. They’re really small. It’s not like a goldfish or anything. These are like small little-

Jen: Okay, like a sardine …

Sabrina: guppies or a sardine or like a little thing. But it’s alive, and it’s swimming, and so I’m trying to catch it while also maneuvering the chopsticks.

And I successfully pick it up, and I put it in my mouth, and I’m like, “Well, there it goes.” And you j- you swallow it whole. There’s no chewing. You just down the hatch. And I have a photo of that actually still, which is … And you can see, right after I did it, you can see the look on my face is like, “Holy crap, I just did that.”

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Sabrina: So that is my wild story

Jen: Um, I am so sad that this is not already an email.

Like

Sabrina: this is- It’s gonna be an epic email now that you’re helping me through this …

Jen: interesting, interesting, riveted. I was like like taking notes. Oh, you’re taking notes. Yeah, I’m, I was not glazing up. I’m, I’m not an auditory learner so I’m like, I have to take notes or I just like lose it.

Um, I, I was just riveted. I was just riveted. Um, I wanna like draw your attention to a couple of things. Okay, first of all, you have like the perfect lead in. Does not matter the year, right? So just like that’s one of the biggest mistakes people make is like, is it a Thursday, is it Tu- you know, doesn’t matter, right?

Like so no one cares like what the date is. But the fact that you were young and you’re 24, like that’s perfect. So a couple things, huge amount of tension, right? Huge amount of tension, there’s build up, there’s promotion. You’re like, “Am I qualified to do this? I like, I, I’m now under so much pressure.” You have like classic fish out of water story, like literally fish out of water.

Like so that’s kind of perfect. So classic fish out of water, you’re not in your, you’re not in your natural environment. You’ve taken this big huge leap, and now everyone is watching to see if you can, if you can cut it. Everyone’s giggling. You know, I think that’s probably where I would start the story is like, “The bowl was getting closer and closer.

Everyone was giggling, and I didn’t know why. I didn’t know what was in the bowl. All I knew was that it was about to be my turn.” Your turn at what? What’s in the bowl? Like, what’s in the bowl? What’s in the box? Like you, you have that moment of like what the hell, and then you go back up and you’re like, “I was 24.

I’d just been promoted. This was my first time in Tokyo. I’m there with my president. We’re all in a line.” You say like, you say all the details that you told me, but ultimately the couple of things that you said where you hear like this is the universal is, “Here goes nothing.” That right there is like here goes nothing.

Is there n- no more siren call of entrepreneurship than here goes nothing? I’m gonna figure out how to catch a fish using these fucking chopsticks that I’ve never used before and do it. Mm-hmm. Like, that is like inspiring, you know? Yeah. That is like, that’s what we’re all doing every day. And so that’s where you say like if you feel like you’re trying to catch a tiny fish with broken chopsticks, you’re not alone.

Like we’re, and maybe- Mm-hmm … and that’s where your offer makes sense of like, okay, if you’re offering coaching, you’re like, “You just need someone who’s used ch- chopsticks before.” That’s all you need. Like you need a voice of reason saying like, “Here, hold them this way.” Like oh, that’s, that to me is where you go like, this is so powerful.

So everyone’s there. Everyone knows what’s about to happen except you. This is tradition. It feels like so much is on the line. This is everyone is p- paying attention. On the internet, everyone’s paying attention. Everyone is, like, watching and waiting to see you fail, right? Yeah. So that is so universal, and so I think that is, like, a fantastic email.

So then, then the give is, like, when you’re in this moment and you feel like you can’t do it, here’s what I thought to myself, is like, “I made it this far, I can make it further.” Like, I’ve done harder things than this before. And then here’s the sell, which is like, “Hey, I know how to use some chopsticks. Like, I’m actually pretty damn good with chopsticks now, and I wanna help you figure this out.”

Like, boom. Like-

Sabrina: Voila … see- So easy.

Jen: Yeah, I wish I had this story.

Sabrina: Um, okay. Well, listeners, you’ll hear this email. You’ll get this, you’ll get my version of this email because that’s so great, and I love how easily you were like, “Well, let me just show you how easy this story will be to tell.”

Jen: Oh, the, I mean, I thought you were gonna give me a hard one.

That one is, that’s amazing. I mean, ’cause that’s just a really good story. It’s, it’s a lot harder when it’s like, you know, I, I got a really bad speeding ticket on Saturday, and my friends all know that, like, when something bad happens, the only bright side is that everyone’s like, “Well, that’s probably gonna be an email.”

Sabrina: Right, right. And

Jen: truly. Right, right. Like, I made, I made it to a baby shower and I told everyone what would happen, and they’re like, “Well, at least it’s gonna be an email,” and I was like, “It will be.” But how do I pivot, like, I got a really bad speeding ticket? You know? Like, I was driving to my son’s game, I was already late, I was trying to fit too many things in.

And you start to hear, like, oh, I tried to fit one more thing in where it didn’t belong- Yeah … and I paid a pr-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jen: There it is. Like, that’s the email is like, w- as entrepreneurs, what are we constantly doing? We’re like, I can take one more thing. I can take one more job. I can do one more thing. I’ll do one more podcast today.

It’ll be fine. It is not fine. Like, s- you will pay a price, and as I am about to pay in traffic court, I will pay- … now hundreds of dollars. Yeah. So let that be a lesson to you, everyone.

Sabrina: Yeah. Um, I love that, that it’s s- that’s such a great example of- Such an everyday thing, because like you said, relatability.

Like, the stomach dropping when you see the lights in the rear view mirror- Ugh … everyone has felt that.

Jen: And then the cop was so nice, which made it so much worse.

Sabrina: Oh, well

Jen: that’s

Sabrina: lovely. You know, I

Jen: got, I got to the… He was, like, apologizing, ’cause I was trying to make my son’s soccer game, and he’s like, “I’m so sorry you’re gonna be m- me missing the game.”

And I was like, “This is still your fault. Like, you can’t be…” I, I mean, it’s my fault, y- uh, but yeah. And then I got to the baby shower, and it was for a sister-in-law of mine, and then as I, like, told this story, two of my sisters-in-laws died laughing, ’cause apparently on the way to the baby shower, they were talking about how fast I like to drive.

Oh,

Sabrina: no.

Jen: You know? There’s just so much color in this story where I’m like, “Okay, well, at least I have an email.”

Sabrina: Nobody’s surprised.

Jen: No. No one was surprised. It’s like, at least feel sorry for me. They’re like, “Jen, you, you like really speed.” And I’m like, “Good.

Sabrina: Okay.” Okay, well, yeah, I got busted.

Jen: Yeah.

Sabrina: Let’s talk about storytelling.

You are obviously very gifted at this, and I think that storytelling is a skill that’s practiced, right? I think some people are probably born with it, but really this is a learned thing. How have you gotten better over time at telling stories?

Jen: Um, I read. I read a lot. Um, I read a lot of fiction, and I love to read.

I always have. And I think one of the things that was, there was, like, this huge disconnect for me for many years ’cause I hated email marketing, um, for so long. Like, ear- like, early on in our company from probably 2013 to 2020 maybe, I never wrote marketing emails because I thought marketing emails were super boring.

And it really took this kind of permission of, like, what if I just wrote the kind of email I would actually want to read? W- I love to tell stories. Why would I not do that? You know, like, why, why would I not do the thing I enjoy? So I think one of the suggestions I always have is, like, find your storytelling North Star.

What kind of stories do you like to read? What kind of content do you like to consume? Usually, that’s a t- like, that’s a tell of, like, this is the kind of content you would want to create something like. And so, um, there’s another copywriter I love. Her name’s Laura Belgray. We’re, like, friends now, but y- r- reading her emails, I, like, discovered her, you know, around that time, and I was like, oh, like, I could do that.

Like, that’s what I, that’s what I like to do. And so that was this permission, and there was, like, another guy, his name’s Cole Schafer, and he’s, like, this poet. He was dating Kasey Musgrave’s for a long time, so he just, like, writes really cool, different emails. And so when you start to discover, like, there’s so many ways to do this.

You don’t have to tell weird stories like mine. You can, um, but you should write the kind of content you actually want to consume. And so I think as a reader, the best thing that can make you a better writer is to be a reader. So it’s, I watch good television and trashy television. I notice what I like about it.

And the same thing with reading. Like, I read a lot. I enjoy, like, I notice what makes a good story, and if you pay attention, you go, like, “Oh, this is ju- these are just formulas,” right? This is what makes this interesting, or this is how I like dialogue to sound. This is how you add color. This is what you…

Like, Emily Henry is, like, a, a kind of, like, a romance novelist. She writes incredible dialogue. It’s, like, super banter. So if you start dissecting that and noticing instead of just consuming, it will transform your writing.

Sabrina: Yeah. Oh, that’s such a good, that’s such a good recommendation. I love to read as well, but I’ve never paid attention to it in that way.

You know what I mean? So that’s fascinating.

Jen: Yeah. Um- Like thoughtful consumption. Yeah, yeah. You know?

Sabrina: You’re

Jen: like, oh, what do I like about this? What do, what makes this dialogue fun for me to read? Like, why do I think this is witty? Why do I think this is funny? Like, what did I like about this story?

Sabrina: Okay, so let’s speak to the photographers for a moment.

We’ve got a lot of them listening. This is such a problem that I hear all the time. All the time. They think, “Well, my work is what gets me hired. My work speaks for itself. I just need to share my photos. I just need to have a website covered in my photos,” and they don’t think they need to tell stories or be relatable or connect with their audience.

They think it’s just about sharing their offer and sharing their work. So I’ve told them many times what I think, but let’s hear it from you, Jen. What would you tell her?

Jen: Yeah. Um, I will join you. So, you know, in … We are living in a time where 15 years ago you wanted a photographer, and you opened up the internet, and you searched photographer Loudoun County, and you had, like, 30 options.

You know? And you’re like, “Okay, I’m, I’m gonna take this one, they have the best website,” or like, “I liked their About photos the best,” or whatever. Now, we can open up the internet, and we can choose from literally a multiplicity of options all around the world. And so you have to imagine that the quality of work is so much higher than it ever has been before.

It is so much easier to execute an incredible professional portfolio with the advent of AI. AI. You don’t even have to shoot in locations that you wanna shoot at. So the bar has been raised, and good work is no longer enough. Good work is the expectation. Good work is the baseline. So there has to be something.

And photographers, the, the, the great news I have for you is that if you’re a photographer who can write or can tell a story, you are a fricking unicorn. And on the internet right now, like, we need to be unicorns. We need to have something that other people don’t have. We need to have a reason that people connect with us.

And as we’ve already told you, stories make people pay attention. People will stay for a story while they will click past and scroll past a photograph in seconds. And we are saturated with beautiful work on Instagram, on the internet, TikTok, whatever it is. Like, that is a dime a dozen. But someone who can tell a story will have a job for forevermore.

That’s why we’ve had stories be passed down for generations. Like, that’s how history was made, is that we were telling stories. So stories are not going anywhere. Work changes, like, you know, AI changes, editing changes. Stories don’t. So I think now is, like, such a powerful time, and it doesn’t have to be that you’re, like, a hilarious, like, funny storyteller.

It can just be explaining, like, why did you see that shot the way that you did? What was the story of the couple that ChatGPT didn’t write? Um, I think Daniel Kim, I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, I think he does a really good job with this. On his Instagram and in his work, he kind of explains, like, what was special about the couple and how he saw the day, and it makes you have so much more respect for the outcome when you hear the story first.

So I think that this is the time, if you’re a photographer and you’re like, “My work stands alone,” no, you’re going to have s- you have to have something else that stands out, or you will disappear.

Sabrina: I agree with that so much. And I, I take it a step further and I’m like, sure, you can tell stories about you as a photographer, but also I, I want pe- I want you to tell stories about you because, you know, especially if you live in a major metroplex.

I mean, I live in Dallas-Fort Worth. There are thousands of photographers. The w- the only thing that’s standing, making anyone stand apart is them and people that wanna hire them because they feel like they relate to them or connect with them or would be friends with them or something about them has made them wanna stick around because Everybody’s work looks the same.

Uh, it’s all, like you said, the baseline is the bare minimum, and that is good work, right? And we’re not gonna compete on pricing, so you need to make people love you, you know?

Jen: Yeah, you have to be the only one they can imagine working with. And I’ve, you know, one of the things I always say is, like, AI can steal your style, your competitors can steal your style, but they can’t steal your story.

That, like, the things that make you you, the weird, traumatic childhood past, the ostrich farm, like, those things, like the speeding ticket you got last Saturday, those are the things that you have that no one else has. And so if you don’t talk about that, then what are, what are you talking about? Like, there is a reason why people pick you, and if you don’t sh- tell them the story of why that should be happening, then they’re not gonna choose you.

So I think, like, remembering that your story is the only thing that people can’t take from you, that’s the only thing that they can’t copy, that, that’s such an important imperative and brand advantage.

Sabrina: I think it, I agree with you, especially in the time of AI. Like, we want humanity. You know, we want humanity, right?

And- You

Jen: want imperfect. You want, like, you wanna know that someone touched this, and that there’s a reason why they did, and that they saw something differently because of this reason, and they’ve always wanted to shoot something like this. Like, that is what makes it interesting, and the photo alone doesn’t sell that.

Sabrina: Yeah. You’re so right. Jen, this has been so fun, and I knew-

Jen: I know.

Sabrina: I knew it was going to be. Oh, tight isn’t it? Um, I knew it was going to be so fun. I, I loved our chat. I loved hearing all of your stories, and all the examples, and the concrete steps, um, that you gave us. It’s so great for the listeners.

Before we wrap, share where everybody can connect with you and get on your email, because now everybody’s gonna jump on. Yes.

Jen: No pressure. They’re like, “This better be fricking good, Jen.” Um, yeah, so you can go find our email list, toniciteshop.com/list. I email every Friday, and you’ll find out very quickly that I write the emails on Friday.

On Friday morning, it’s like appointment television, where I know that I’m gonna have to write on Friday. So I wake up, I typically have a story in mind that I’m gonna tell, and so you’re getting, like, it’s, like, happening real time. Um, so that’s on Fridays, and then you can find us on online. We make very beautiful website and social media templates, email graphics, all the things, and that’s just @toniciteshop, and we’re toniciteshop on Instagram, too.

Sabrina: Yes. And again, my new site is a tonic site. And so-

Jen: If you wanna be like Sabrina, which I highly recommend- … because I, you showed me your site if you’re a educator. If you guys haven’t seen her website, it is so gorgeous. It’s, like, the best advertisement for Tonic. Yes. And so

Sabrina: I was just

Jen: thrilled.

Sabrina: Yes, it is great, and it’s been so fun to work with, and play with, and all of that.

So highly, highly recommend. Thank you so much for your time. This has been such a great chat.

Jen: Loved it. Thanks so much for having me. Everyone, tell great stories.

Sabrina: Mm. All right, we’ll see you next time. Thanks so much for listening to the Shoot It Straight podcast. You can find all the full show notes and details from today’s episode at sabrinagebhart.com/podcast.

Come find me and connect over on the Gram at xo sabrina gebhart. And if you’re loving the podcast, I’d be honored if you’d hit that subscribe button and leave me a review. Until next time, my friends.