206: What The Enneagram Says About Your Confidence, Burnout, and Your Business with Enneagram Ashton

Sabrina: On today’s episode of the Shoot It Straight podcast, I have Enneagram Ashton with us, and we are talking about how the Enneagram can support you as a business owner. And it really is a fascinating discussion. I was taking notes furiously for myself personally, so I know that you’re going to get a lot of value in it.

We talked about motivations behind different Enneagram types. We talked about which ones struggle with confidence more than others, what burnout looks like for different types, and what the stress response is. And it really is such a great conversation because you can take this information about yourself, and it’s like you get to see when the red flags are going off that something is not right or something is going really well, and it can help you make decisions to set up your business for more success and more ease.

And I know that whether or not you know what your Enneagram type is today, there is value for you in this episode. I hope that it motivates you to learn a little bit more, to start making decisions from the perspective of what your type is. And also, if you don’t know what your type is, maybe this episode will motivate you to learn a little bit more.

So let’s dive in

Welcome to Shoot It Straight, the podcast for women building businesses and lives they actually want. I’m Sabrina Gebhardt, and around here, we believe in clarity over hustle, alignment over burnout, and giving yourself permission to want more, more ease, more beauty, more income, more space to live. So if you’re ready to grow without losing yourself in the process, you’re in the right place.

Welcome back to the Shoot It Straight podcast, my friends. Today, I’m so excited to have a new friend with us on the podcast. I met Ashton earlier this year at the Creative Educator Conference, and it was honestly a little bit of a fangirl moment, because I have followed her for years, and I’m sure that many of you do too, and I can confirm that she’s just as sweet in real life as she appears online, which is always so nice when you meet somebody in person that you’ve followed, you know?

I’m super excited to have her with us on the podcast today talking about the Enneagram, but before we get started, Ashton, I’m gonna let you do a little introduction of yourself to the listeners.

Ashton: Thank you for having me, and for those kind words. Honestly, I had no idea you were fangirling, so you hid it r- you hid it really well.

But I was also fangirling, because I feel like everybody was… And I think I shared this with you, everybody kept talking about, “Sabrina, Sabrina, Sabrina,” and I was like, “I don’t know who Sabrina is.” And so when I finally met you, I was like, “You’re Sabrina. You are the one.” So it was so nice to finally make that connection, but hi, everybody.

My name is Ashton Whitmoyer Ober. I’m enneagramashton on Instagram. I’m an Enneagram educator, consultant, author, speaker, all of the things, and I love to share about the Enneagram with everybody who will listen to me about how impactful it can be on your life, your business, your relationships, all of the above.

So I’m super excited to be here.

Sabrina: Ev- I think everybody at this point, e- especially after the 2020 and the pandemic when a lot of people, like the resurgence of the Enneagram came, like I went down the rabbit hole and read some of the like OG Enneagram books at that time. So I know how old it actually is.

But a lot of people heard about it for the first time in the 2020 pandemic timing. And so I think everybody at this point should have heard of it, knows generally what it is, maybe they don’t know what they are, and lots of people have taken like a test online. There’s lots of them out there. I think they like take it, a lot of people take it, but then they don’t do anything with the information, right?

It just kinda stops there, and they’re like, “Oh, I’m a three,” or whatever, because it can be a little bit overwhelming when you start to read all of the things, um, you know, the shadow side and the like all the things. And so I think a lot of people kinda stop with that, and they’re just like, “I just wanna know my number and what my number’s name is and all of that.”

Can you just do a really loose general description of like what is the Enneagram and, more importantly, like what does it do for someone that does go, wanna go a little bit deeper into it?

Ashton: Yeah. So a lot of, like you said, there was a resurgence, and I’ll talk about that, but a lot of people gravitate towards the Enneagram instead of, uh, tests like Myers-Briggs or StrengthsFinders, because it is so different, and I’ll go into that.

But the Enneagram is actually a really, really old personality typing system. It’s between 2 to 4,000 years old. Like so old that, I mean, 2 to 4,000 is a big range. We can’t actually pinpoint the exact starting point because it’s so old. But, uh, and the, the difference between the Enneagram and other personality typing systems is that it’s about your motivation.

So instead of, you know, on Myers-Briggs, everybody’s like, “Oh, I’m an ENFJ, and I’m extroverted, and maybe I avoid conflict, or I face it head-on.” Like, all of those are behavior traits. But the Enneagram comes in and shows you why you do things the way that you do. So maybe why you’re introverted or why you avoid conflict.

And so instead, it’s about the motivations behind your behaviors. And so it’s not really meant for you to discover your type and then just go on into the world. It’s meant to be used as a tool to better understand yourself and others, to maybe grow through some of those things about your type that don’t feel so great.

I always say the Enneagram isn’t this comfy, cozy thing that’s meant to, like, make you feel really great about yourself. I think it’s meant to, like, open up your eyes to some of those areas that you can change. Because once you know why you do things the way that you do them, then you can change those behaviors that you don’t really like or appreciate about yourself, like, you know, being able to be more, uh, vocal or be more opinionated.

And so if you understand why you struggle with that, then you can work towards changing those behaviors.

Sabrina: Yeah, I love that. So let’s take that and put it into, like, a business spin, um, for all the entrepreneurs listening. So when you start working with a creative entrepreneur and you learn their type, what are the first things that you see, like, the need to shift in how they’re running their business?

Like, are there patterns that come up over and over again? Is there, like, a common thread that you see, um, frequently?

Ashton: Yeah, there’s always patterns related to specific Enneagram types. And honestly, that’s, like, the word that I use, is patterns, because we can break patterns, right? Like, patterns are able to be broken if we don’t like them, but they are patterns because it’s something that we have essentially taught ourselves to do for many, many years.

So let’s say that you… I, I’ll just start with three, because a lot of entrepreneurs in general, like, have three tendencies, and three is the achiever. And so they’re motivated by this desire to succeed and to be seen as, like, capable and competent and efficient, right? All very, very much things you would associate with being an entrepreneur or business owner.

But what threes don’t, uh, realize is that when they become overwhelmed, they can move into procrastination or just becoming so overwhelmed with all the things that they have to do that they don’t wanna do any of it. And therefore, going against What their typical motivations are. And so, yes, there are always patterns that are associated with people who are running their own business or, you know, being an entrepreneur.

It’s just going to depend on the Enneagram type specifically what those patterns look like.

Sabrina: So I would love to take that a step further with the threes, ’cause you’re right, like, so many entrepreneurs are threes, and so many listeners are threes. I’m a three. And what I’ve actually heard a lot, um, from people in my audience recently, whether it’s women in my coaching program or in my DMs or whatever, is that they are in that space of overwhelmed to freeze, right?

Like, they’re s- they- they’re just like, “I can’t do anything. I feel like I’m spinning my wheels, but not, like, getting anything really done. I feel like I’m just staying afloat.” Um, you know, all these things, and it’s hard to hear, and I absolutely empathize with it, because I’ve been in that place before. So what do you…

What should the threes do with that? Like, when they can recognize, “Oh, I’m in this place of procrastination because I’m overwhelmed,” what’s the next step for them to get out of that?

Ashton: And usually, so obviously there are steps to get out of that, but there are also steps to prevent that, right? So, like, there are steps that you can take to prevent you even getting to that point, and a lot of times people do get to that point, because they’re tying their identity into what they’re doing.

And so they’re oftentimes… Like, they are what they do. That’s a lot of times what these types tend to, tend to, uh, associate with their work is like, “Okay, if I’m not doing this thing, then I don’t have any value,” or, “I don’t have any worth beyond that.” And so of course they’re gonna keep saying yes, and signing up for things, and putting more things on their to-do list, because if they just keep doing, and doing, and doing, then they’ll feel worthy.

And so it’s a lot of times, uh, about discovering your identity apart from the roles that you’re playing. And being able to separate who you are from what you do. And that’s a practice, right? Again, you’ve been doing this for your entire life essentially, and so it’s a practice. But once you get to that point of overwhelm, it’s again having that awareness of what I do next does not determine my worth or what I do or what I accomplish does not determine who I am, and taking things one step at a time with knowing that, right?

With knowing that… Because what, what ends up happening is because they are so focused on image, a lot of times they’re focused on image, like how, what people are or how people are viewing them based on what they’re accomplishing. And so they get caught up then in having to put on this, like, mask and showing other people that they’re able to get things done, and then it’s a cycle of being unable to get the things done because they’re so overwhelmed by all of the things that they’ve put on, but then they want to show themselves or have them appear a certain way to other people, and it’s just this cycle that they can’t break out of.

And so the best way is to focus on your identity. Like, if all of this were to go away, who would you be? Taking things one step at a time And then being able to come back to the passion. A lot of times people in … So not just threes, but like twos, threes, and fours, they’re in what we call the heart triad, and so they have m- more of a connection to their heart and their feelings than other types.

And so when it comes to entrepreneurs, obviously there can be a lot of feelings involved in why you do things the way that you do, or why you’re even, you know, doing the job that you’re doing. And so making that connection back to the heart of the matter can be really helpful in propelling them forward when they feel kind of in that rut or stuck in their patterns.

Sabrina: I love hearing that, the focus on the identity outside of what you do. That is something that comes up in conversation a lot, specifically from the spin of like marketing, right? So a lot of times I see photographers, and the number one mistake that they are making is they’re only sharing photos of what they’ve, pictures that they’ve taken, and availability.

And I’m like, “You are more of a person than just the photographer role that you play. If you want your audience to connect with you, you need to be sharing about these other things that make you you,” right? And like stepping more into a personal brand role, right? And they just have such a hard time separating.

They’re like, “But I am a photographer.” And I’m like, “But you are also all of these other things,” right? So I know that that, that’s a struggle, so I love that, um, focusing on who you are if what you did was removed, you know?

Ashton: And that’s really difficult for people to do. Like, whether you’re a three or not, I feel like entrepreneurs in general just

Because it’s essentially like a, it’s like a subset of who, of them, right? It’s like their baby Yeah, so it’s difficult to pull that apart.

Sabrina: And I do think it’s also the longer you’ve been in business, the harder it is, right? The longer you’ve worn that role as your identity, the more times you’ve been introduced as this thing, and it really does become who you are and what you see yourself as, and how you think that the world is viewing you.

And it’s kinda like you lose what you were before you started your business, right?

Ashton: But then it puts a lot of pressure on them. You know? Like, it’s so much pressure. Like, if you are what you’re doing, then what happens if what you’re doing isn’t doing well, right? And so, like, what happens in those slow seasons or in those times where you’re, like, questioning, ’cause we all do it, questioning, like, “Should I still be doing this?”

Or, “Is this for me?” And then, you know, what they’re really saying to themselves is, like, “Am I good enough to be doing this?” And so it’s a whole identity thing then of, you know, not just, like, is your business not doing well, but are you not doing well because of that.

Sabrina: And there’s also the, the part that’s sh- God forbid you should decide that you don’t love that thing anymore, and you have a new passion, and you want to…

Because we are creatives, and oftentimes what we start doing is not what we end up doing, right? Doors open and, and things pivot, and, you know, you start to get pulled into some, some new thing. But there’s this struggle of like, “But I’ve been this for so long. How can I be this?” And it, it really is incredible how messy entrepreneurship can feel to the individual, you know?

Um, it’s not nearly as clean as like, “I go to work for this company, and I get a paycheck from them.” So, um, there’s, there’s so much worth and identity tied into that. I’m curious, um, something that I talk about a lot on the podcast and with photographers is burnout. Obviously, we kind of just talked a little bit about, like, threes and, and how it affects them.

Do you feel like you see it with all of the Enneagram types? Um, i- are there some that kinda get stuck in burnout more than others? I just would love to know your thoughts on, like, burnout in general from the Enneagram perspective.

Ashton: Yeah, so burnout can happen to any type. It’s gonna be why, right? Like, the why is going to be related to each specific type.

So for example, like ones, they’re called the reformer, and their biggest motivation is doing things the right way or being seen as a good person. And so they might experience burnout when people are, like, consistently doing the wrong thing or, like, consistently, uh, not letting them, like, step into being able to do the right thing.

And so, you know, whereas sevens might experience burnout, sevens are the enthusiast, and so they’re motivated by, like, freedom and flexibility and wanting to seek contentment and new experiences. And so they might experience burnout if things aren’t exciting for them anymore, or if they are just kind of bored or, like, stuck in a pattern Whereas nines, nines are the peacemaker, so their biggest desire is to maintain a peaceful environment, and for themselves and for other people.

And so they might experience burnout if things are constantly tense or if they’re on edge or, like, walking on eggshells a lot of times. So any type can experience burnout, it’s just about, like, why that happens. Whereas, like, conflict or tension is not going to affect eights like it does nines, right? So, like, eights would, would…

If you were to say, like, everybody experiences burnout when there’s always tension or they’re always walking on eggshells, and that’s just such a blanket statement because everybody’s different. And that’s really the point of the Enneagram, right, is realizing that the way that you respond to something is going to be very different to the way somebody else does.

Whereas, you know, eights, if they are in a, a high-conflict situation, could they potentially be burnt out down the road? Yes, but it’s not gonna affect them quite like it does other types.

Sabrina: So when we find ourselves feeling burnt out, we can look to our type and the motivation, and that’s a red flag of this is where, where to find what’s causing that feeling for us.

Ashton: Yeah. So twos, twos are the helper. I’m a two. And they often get burnt out because they’re constantly showing up for other people and doing things for other people, and maybe not receiving anything in return. Even if it’s not from other people, they’re not, like, taking care of themselves or, like, receiving that in return.

So yeah, once you, you discover your type and you see what your motivations are, it’s, it’s beneficial then to do that to be able to see what’s burning you out, to es- essentially pre- prevent that from happening.

Sabrina: Right. I love that. Let’s talk about, um, visibility for a second. I… You know, we all hear that we need to show up consistently for our audience.

We need to show up online, we need to show up on our emails, et cetera, et cetera. Some people, it’s easier for than others, right? We see some people, like, have no problem showing up, and some people, it is, you just really cannot get them to show up at all, definitely not consistently. Does someone’s type kind of play into that role at all about visibility and showing up with consistency, or not, not really?

Ashton: For sure. I mean, I’m a big believer that your type can impact, like, every area of your life. And so this is just another area, whereas you have… I ki- I’ve mentioned sevens before. Sevens statistically are going to be your most extroverted type, but then fives are going to be your most introverted type. And so fives are going to have a really hard time showing up in that sort of way, and that’s because their biggest desire is to Like reserve their resources and to, like protect themselves from energy depletion.

And if we know anything about constantly having to show up, it’s definitely going to deplete our energy. And so for fives, like that’s really difficult to do. Sixes might have a difficult time showing up because they’re really focused on like safety and security, and so if it doesn’t feel safe to them to be able to do that, then it’s difficult.

I also see it for ones sometimes because they can get stuck in perfectionistic tendencies, and so they might have a hard time showing up if everything isn’t absolutely perfect or put together or, you know, whatever that looks like for them. So anybody can struggle with showing up. It’s going to be for different reasons, but those are the types that I see it most often.

Sabrina: So another thing that we deal with, we being the photographer group industry, is undercharging. I mean, this is not just a photographer thing. A lot of service providers struggle with this, but it’s like a running joke with photographers like, uh, that everybody just needs to raise their prices. Like, I don’t even need you to tell me your prices, and I can tell you you need to raise them.

I’m curious if there’s a connection to Enneagram and why people struggle with that, with s- like charging what they’re worth, or even, even the part of money that like, like asking for the sale, right? Are there certain Enneagram types that have a harder time with those things than others?

Ashton: So I think the root of that, when anyb- when any time that somebody struggles with like charging their worth or communicating their services or whatever that looks like, what it comes down to for me is confidence, right?

It’s like the confidence in the, in your ability and to perform the service and confidence in your ability to know that you’re worth that. And so in general, there are going to be types that struggle with confidence more than other types. So remember what I said about the heart triad. So the ones who care a lot about what people think of them, or, you know, are focused on image or, you know, want people to like them, those are our twos, threes and fours.

And so in general, twos, threes and fours are going to struggle the most with this. So twos, you know, it’s like they want to be liked and loved. So they’re like, “If I give them this price, they’re not gonna like me or want to sign up with me.” Same with threes, like they wanna be respected and valued and so, same.

And then fours, they are worried that they will be seen as like defective or like wrong because of their prices. And so those are definitely going to be the ones that struggle with it the most. Nines are– I’m also going to throw into that group because their biggest fear is conflict, like I mentioned before, or tension.

And so they are often afraid that if I state that this is my price then it could cause conflict, right? And so they might just like try to play it safe. Sixes might also struggle with that because of wanting to play it safe. Sixes in general as well also struggle with a little bit of self-doubt, and so they might doubt themselves and their ability to really charge what they’re worth, you know?

But there are other types that, you know, in general are, are pretty confident and know what they have to offer and don’t struggle with it as much, which is interesting.

Sabrina: Yeah. So I love how you said that a lot of those issues come from confidence. So removing the pricing, the s- the s- you know, asking for the sale, the sharing the services piece of it, and just talking about confidence in general, is that, would you say the same thing, the twos, threes, fours, nines are just generally struggle with confidence more than the other types?

Ashton: Yeah, I would say that. And of course, like any type can struggle with confidence, but it’s like an… It’s a natural thing, right? So, like some types, confidence comes a little bit more natural to them, whereas others, they have to work for it. I think that people listening to this might think that I’m crazy for including threes into that, but if, you know, there are varying levels because threes in general, like, they can be pretty confident, but it’s often a mask.

Like, they’re confident on the outside, but internally they struggle, again, with what people will think about them or tying their identity into what they’re doing. And so then, uh, they kind of are able to like put it on and then take it off. And so it is more of a like need to be developed, and that’s what it…

That’s just really what it is for these other types, is often they need to just step into who they are and develop this confidence around that.

Sabrina: Yeah, I can absolutely speak to that as a three, the confidence piece. I do think that it, like you said, it’s something that we can develop. So that h- the, the saying that I hate, the fake it till you make it, like for threes, I think is a thing.

Like, we can put on that confidence, but then after we’ve proven to ourself that we actually did do the thing and it worked out, then the confidence becomes real because we have proof, you know? And so it, it’s, it is a little bit of like putting on that mask, just trusting that it’s gonna work out and it’s gonna do the thing, and then it does, and then we do actually have a little bit of that actual true confidence starting to build.

Um, it’s, it’s wild that threes struggle with that and that so many entrepreneurs are threes, you know? It’s, it’s crazy to think that, but it makes, it makes perfect sense, too. Okay. So Enneagram tells us what our motivations are. It also, I kind of said this in the beginning, it… We can learn what we are in stress, right?

Um, based on our Enneagram number. And the way we move in stress- Just like everything with the Enneagram, it helps us learn about ourselves to stay out of it or red flags when we’re in it, and that kind of thing. It’s just, it’s good information to have. But for, um, entrepreneurs that are constantly navigating stressful, potentially stressful situations, right?

We’ve got slow seasons, difficult clients, launches that didn’t go well. We’re trying to figure out our next move. You know, there’s a lot of stress involved in what we do. How can understanding what our stress, what we feel like in stress help us move through it instead of getting stuck in, like, a spiral?

Ashton: Yeah. So it’s often that prevention piece, right? When you understand, A, what stresses you out the most, and B, what your stress response is, then you can start to f- feel it coming. So for… I’ll give you an ex- I’ll use myself as an example. So twos, when they’re really stressed, they tend to, like, lash out. They can lash out.

They can go from, like, zero to 100, and I can almost feel it coming, where I’m like, “Okay, I’m gonna flip out, and, like I need to stop that from happening.” And so that’s what your, like, having an understanding of your stress can do for you. Not saying that it’s perfect or that it’s always going to prevent things from happening, but you’re able to see when it’s coming, right?

So, like, if I know that stressful… That these are things that are going to stress me out, then I can plan and prepare for my reaction when it comes that way, and that’s really what the Enneagram can do for you because we all have different stress responses. We all have different stress reactions. Again, we all d- have different things that are going to stress us out, whereas, like, if I get a nasty email from a client Right?

That would stress me out. That would… I actually said this to my sister yesterday, and I said, like, if I were to get a stressful or a nasty comment or a nasty email, like, that would ruin me. Whereas for, like, other types, my sister’s an eight, so if she gets a nasty email, she’s like, “Oh, well that’s their problem.”

Right? So again, different things are going to stress people out, and it’s how you respond to that that matters.

Sabrina: I think that is so smart. Will you, will you really quickly run down what the stress response is for all of the numbers, just so we have it?

Ashton: Yeah. And so what’s interesting about the Enneagram is that we actually take on different types when we’re stressed.

So we take on the unhealthy qualities or the negative qualities of those types when we’re stressed. So ones, when they’re stressed, they’ll go to the unhealthy four, and that looks like withdrawing into their emotions, feeling like nobody gets you, kind of throwing yourself a pity party. Twos, like I mentioned before, they will go to the unhealthy side of the eights, and that looks like lashing out, becoming sh- uh, sharp with their tone, really focusing on, like, anger.

Threes, I mentioned this before without mentioning that it was stress, but threes go to the unhealthy nine. And so they become so overwhelmed with everything that they have to do that they kind of turn into a sloth and want to do nothing, like the nine, and they procrastinate. Fours, when they’re stressed, they become a little bit needy, like overly accommodating, put, uh, their own needs last, like the unhealthy two Fives will become scattered, have a hard time focusing, like the unhealthy seven.

Sixes are going to feel like they’re the only one that can do something. They’ll have workaholic tendencies, feel like they’re the best, like an unhealthy three. Sevens will become critical and judgmental, and maybe a little bit perfectionistic like the unhealthy one. Eights are going to shut everybody out, withdraw completely, put up these high walls like a five.

And then nines will become anxious. They’ll experience self-doubt, worst-case scenario thinking like the unhealthy six.

Sabrina: That is so helpful, and I hope everybody, like, just took notes on what theirs is because it’s so helpful to be able to see, like you said, to see the red flag coming or building so that you can put something in place to stop it, and then again, like you’ve mentioned, create ways to prevent that from hopefully happening in the future when we can, right?

Okay, this has been so fun. Let’s just kind of wrap it up with, I love to, when I have guests on the podcast talking about their expertise, somebody’s listening right now, and maybe they took the test and they know their number, but they didn’t go any farther. Maybe they’ve never even taken a test. What’s the one thing that you would tell someone to do that where they can start using the Enneagram as a business tool for themselves?

Ashton: Yeah, I love that. So, and I will preface this by saying that tests are a great place to start, but there’s so much more that goes into the Enneagram than tests. And to be honest, like, a lot of us don’t even recommend tests because- A lot of times they’re not accurate, because tests are asking you questions based on behaviors, and as we’ve talked about, the Enneagram is about your motivation.

So the best thing to do is to really just learn about the types and see what resonates with you. And people hate that, because they want somebody to tell them what Enneagram they are. We’re human, right? But, uh, it’s, it’s a tool, right? It’s a process. It’s likely something that is not going to be determined right away, and you have to really think about your life as a whole and as, and the journey that you were on and what led you here today.

So I would say that figuring that out and confirming that is obviously the first step, but also just identifying what your tendencies are. And I would focus on the motivations, because in business, we have to be motivated to do our work. And so focusing on those motivations are going to help you to achieve whatever it is that you wanna achieve.

Sabrina: I agree with that. I, I read, like I said, I’ve read Enneagram b- books before, and I’ve taken a test, but I also had heard that it’s actually better to learn about all the types. I actually… I, I think it’s very common for people to identify with pieces of multiple types, right? But the one thing that really kind of solidified that I was a three was actually my stress response.

I was like, that is absolutely what I do every single time, and that was kind of the thing that sealed it for me that I was a three. It was really fascinating. And I would not have learned that had I not kinda gone down the rabbit hole and put a little more time and effort into reading about it. Yeah.

Ashton, this was such a great chat. Will you just share with the listeners where they can find you and connect with you?

Ashton: Yes. Please come follow me at enneagramashton on Instagram or enneagramashton.com. I do have a self-assessment tool, and so that can be really helpful, because you’re combining some of the questions from traditional tests, but you’re doing it as a self-assessment to help you get to those true motivations.

So I would love to help you on your Enneagram journey, and that’s where you can find me.

Sabrina: Amazing. I will put the link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, my friend. This was a great chat.

Ashton: Thanks for having me.

Sabrina: We’ll see you next time, my friends. Thanks so much for listening to the Shoot It Straight podcast.

You can find all the full show notes and details from today’s episode at sabrinagebhart.com/podcast. Come find me and connect over on the gram at xo.sabrinagebhart. And if you’re loving the podcast, I’d be honored if you’d hit that subscribe button and leave me a review. Until next time, my friends.