Sometimes celebrating a major milestone calls for bringing together your business besties for an honest conversation about business. In today’s episode, I’m replaying my conversation from the Business-First Creatives Project, where I’m chatting with my business besties Colie James and Annemie Tonken about our over 30 years combined experience in photography. We’re diving into mistakes we’ve made, pricing strategies, and so much more.
The Shoot It Straight Podcast is brought to you by Sabrina Gebhardt, photographer and educator. Join us each week as we discuss what it’s like to be a female creative entrepreneur while balancing entrepreneurship and motherhood. If you’re trying to find balance in this exciting place you’re in, yet willing to talk about the hard stuff too, Shoot It Straight Podcast is here to share practical and tangible takeaways to help you shoot it straight.
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Review the Show Notes:
3:10 – Meet My Business Besties
5:20 – Diving Into the Business of Photography
6:34 – The Outsourcing Debate in Photography
10:37 – Exploring the Associate Photographer Model 9:
20:36 – The Power of Pricing and Confidence in Business
29:39 – The Mindset of Pricing in Business
29:56 – Confidence and Detachment in Pricing Strategies
30:05 – Business Pricing and Value
32:27 – Client Experience and Justifying Price
35:55 – Beginner Business Mistakes
37:54 – Education and Outsourcing
40:24 – Systems and Processes for Business Success
50:44 – Collaboration and Feedback
Connect with Colie:
Website: https://coliejames.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coliejames/
Connect with Annemie:
Website: thiscantbethathard.com
Instagram: instagram.com/thiscantbethathard_
Review the Transcript:
Review the Show Notes:
On this episode of the shoot it straight podcast, you are getting the last in the summer sabbatical series. This is the replay series of episodes where I have been interviewed on other podcasts. And honestly, I’ve saved the best for last. Okay. So I hope you are still with me, still listening. But in this episode, this is actually the two year anniversary episode that we recorded on my business besties podcast, Coley James.
And it’s not only Coley and I, but our third business bestie Annamie Tonkin is also in on the conversation. The three of us are chatting about things that we have experienced. During our more than 30 years combined experience as photographers. And honestly, I say more than 30, I think it’s closer to 40.
Okay. We have a ton of experience and if you’ve never heard us chat before, we also bring really unique perspectives to the table. This chat is. Jam packed with so many incredible nuggets. We talk pricing, we talk systems, we talk service, we talk mistakes. We’ve made, I mean, nothing’s off the table in this chat.
So I cannot wait for you to listen to this replay episode. It is such a good one. And next podcast with fresh new content from me. I can’t wait to dive into all the good things coming to the podcast this fall. So. Without further ado, jump into this awesome replay with Coley and Annamie.
You are listening to the business first creatives podcast. I’m your host, Coley James. In each episode, you will hear real life stories behind the scene takes and practical insights for how to streamline and grow a creative business that brings you joy and a paycheck. Let’s get started.
Today’s episode is brought to you by my DIY Dubsado template shop, where you can purchase the exact same email, form, and workflow templates I include inside the CRM Blueprint course. You can totally steal my templates to eliminate setup stress, while also customizing them to match your brand and process.
Head over to coleyjames. com slash templates and use the code podcast for 10 percent off. That’s coleyjames. com slash template. Hello. Hello. And welcome back to the business first creatives podcast. Y’all this is going to be a little different. First, in case you haven’t noticed or you’re not watching this on YouTube, there are three of us.
I have asked my business besties Annamie Tonkin and Sabrina Gebhardt to join me today for what I think is going to be my second anniversary podcast episode. Yay, me. I have made it two years. Thank you. I don’t know. This is going to be like episode 160, 170, somewhere in there. So I’m very proud of myself for not quitting.
I’m continuing to go, but I’m also going to admit to you guys that I’m in a headspace right now where I’m a little like, I don’t know what to do for these podcast episodes. So they were gracious to come and join me. And guys, there is no plan, which I honestly don’t think that there are two worst people to get on a podcast episode with, with no notes, no questions and no plan because I am off the cuff 24 seven and neither of these ladies are good morning.
Good morning, Sabrina.
Good morning. And congratulations.
I know. I am honored and excited to be off the cuff with you because this is going to be really fun.
Well, Sabrina, I will admit you and I have been doing those quarterly business chats, which Hey guys, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, Sabrina’s podcast is shoot it straight.
And in 2024, we are recording an off the cuff business, bestie chat. Every quarter where we’re talking about the real shit that’s happening behind the scenes in our business and what we’re currently planning and whether or not we actually did what we said we were going to do the previous quarter.
Spoiler, I have not done anything that I said I was going to do in a quarter, but there’s always Q3. So if you haven’t listened to those chats, I am going to link them in the show notes, but I thought it would be fun. To have them on not only because they’re my business besties, not only because we just spent a fabulous weekend together in Michigan getting shit done, but both of these ladies have been in the photography business for 10 plus years, just like me.
So I thought it would be interesting to come on and basically talk about our businesses and what we’re currently seeing and maybe what we would do if we started all over. I mean, I don’t know if we’re going to get there, but let’s dive in. I’ve got my first question, guys, and either one of you can take it.
You know, you guys can squabble, you can fight, whatever. We have been talking a lot about business versus photography. And so when you decide that you want to pick up a camera and you want to charge people actual money to take their photos, one of the things that happens is you suddenly decide, Oh, this is a real business.
And it takes more skills than clicking your shutter in order to make it work. So let’s just start with a number because I’m a numbers person. What would you say is the percentage of your job as a photographer that’s business tasks versus
actual photography? I’m going to say business is 90 percent and photography is 10.
Yeah, I think you can streamline both and you can choose to be more streamlined on one side or the other. So you can like, you know, let’s say that you love the photography side and really don’t like the business side. I would recommend that you streamline that first. But when it comes down to individual tasks, I am right with you, Sabrina.
Like, it is a 90 10 kind of a proposition. So it, it takes a fair amount more to get the business part set up and then organized, streamlined, and potentially even outsourced to somebody else than it does on the photography side.
Ding, ding, ding! I really did wonder how long it was going to take one of us to use the word outsource.
I think that was less than five minutes, y’all. Good job. Do I get
the slime poured on my head like back in the Nickelodeon days?
Yes. I think that is a great analogy for what we should do to you, Annamie. And it is true. I feel like photographers as a whole are very slow to outsource and whether that is outsourcing business tasks, like through your CRM, through a virtual assistant, or if it’s actually outsourcing the photography, which would be like the editing.
But it’s also taking on people like associates, which is, you know, that’s a, that’s a pretty controversial topic for a lot of people. Cause only you can take a picture like you can, I don’t know. How do we feel about that statement?
Oh, do we want to dive into that statement or do we want to dive into the paying for outsourcing statement?
Cause I have thoughts on that too.
Uh, whichever one you want to roll with Sabrina.
Yeah. Okay. So as far as the paying for outsourcing, People that start off as photographers, again, they want to be creative. They want to take the photos. They have that passion as their hobby. They want to make money. All of a sudden they realize they have 90 percent of this job is business things.
So they’re kind of learning and figuring it out. They’re winging in that part. And what they don’t realize is that. You should not be paying for outsourcing out of pocket. It should not be coming out of your profit or your paycheck. You build that in to your expenses and your rates. And I literally teach on this all the time.
I’m like, that’s fine. If you say you cannot afford more childcare hours or an editor. Raise your prices so that you can afford those things. It’s quite simple.
Yeah. I think, you know, there is truth to the fact that no one can take a photo exactly like you. I think that the part that gets me and gets me kind of where I feel like I have to bite my tongue sometimes is what makes you.
So unbelievably special that the people who are reaching out to you who want to hire you, but maybe, you know, need something a little bit cheaper, whatever, like that, they are missing out on having any photography experience at all that you could. Put that you could get behind. I mean, we all have a finite amount of time.
If you want to, for instance, pay to have an associate. And in order to do that, you have to like increase certain amounts, you know, certain parts of your pricing, whatever the math can work, where you can take on an associate and charge less than you would charge for you to go make that photo, because that person is at a stage in their career where they don’t have the overhead or they don’t have the needs for profit margin or So you can run the business side of things for them, offer them a living wage to go make the photos.
And then you’re handling the business side of it. And everybody wins. Like you’re making money on that transaction. The photographer is making money on that transaction. And the person who’s hiring a photographer at a rate that they can afford is getting the thing that they want at the price that they can afford.
And so what bugs me is when somebody is like, well, it’s just all or nothing, either you’re going to pay my rates, whatever those are. Or like. I can’t help you and there’s a time and a place for that, but it’s certainly I feel like ego needs to be taken out of it a little bit.
Yeah, that is
so true.
I also think and again, this may stir the pot a little bit, but I think for the majority of the photographers out there and.
You know, in this day and age in 2024, there are like an infinite number of us everywhere. I think the majority of people, it is a teachable skill. It is a learned skill. You can absolutely train an associate or five associates or 10 associates to shoot exactly the same way you do. You can train them.
You’re posing your lighting, your settings. You can take them under your wings. It’s very similar to when certain artists go learn from other educators. You can tell. That those people have learned to shoot like that said educator because it’s a teachable thing. And again, there are a small percentage of photographers that really do have this off the charts, artistic eye and things that are maybe not teachable, but for the majority of us, you can absolutely teach somebody to take a photo just like you would.
Absolutely. And I just want to, I guess I want to be clear for the listening audience. I have never had associates as far as I know, neither of you have as well, but have you ever toyed with the idea of bringing associates into your business? And if you did think about it. Why didn’t you?
Yeah, I’m toying with that idea right now because I am actually at a place in my business where I am, the education side of my business is taking up a lot more of my time.
I have my membership. I have these dedicated clients who love working with me and I love working with them, but I feel like that the task switching that I’m having to do. When I go back and forth between my two businesses, and now I should also say, like, my husband just started a business. I’ve got a son who’s graduating from high school.
I’ve got another one. Like, there’s, you know, as, you know, We move through seasons of life, our attention shifts and all this other stuff. And I’m starting to wrap my head around the fact that something needs to change in my photography business. And so hiring an associate or a couple of associates is one route that I am sort of actively pursuing.
But one of the things, and this, comes down to this decision for me. One of the things that, you know, when you’re thinking about hiring associates is like, do you want to take that on? Because that is its own, your, you know, that’s managing other people. It’s managing personalities and schedules and all that.
So like, as we move, Up and I’ll say just up in terms of like getting our bearings from like an organizational and a business perspective and a communication perspective and all that sort of stuff. Like a simple business based on. I take photos and charge money for that can be. It requires some infrastructure, but it’s not much.
Once you start getting up to these other levels, you have to, you have to decide what kind of a business owner you want to be. And if you don’t want to do that, if you don’t want to be a boss or like, you know, manage all that other stuff, that’s, it’s a, that’s a question to consider. There’s no right or wrong.
Yeah. I have a similar answer as on me here. I never followed through with it because I got to a point where it was like, okay, do I want to expand this part of my business or do I want to spend my time, energy and efforts growing the education side? And I chose the education thing. And for me personally, I don’t have a membership.
I do have tons of recurring clients and things like that, and I still have a lot of great word of mouth, but because I’m putting more energy out on education, that’s what’s growing. And the photography is holding. pretty steady, but I would say it is maybe, you know, dwindling a little bit year to year. And I’m okay with that.
I’m okay with slowly starting to let the percentage shift of what I’m doing. And so that’s why I’m not pursuing and I have not pursued having associates before. But I have tons of women that I coach that do because they don’t want to get into education right now, or they don’t This is the only thing they want to grow and they have massive amounts of inquiries and they can’t serve everybody and they see the potential to have like the revenue that they could be making and how they could make this work.
And it’s. It’s something they want to pursue because you’re right. It is managing more people. It is more moving parts, you know, what about
you, Colleen? I’m going to take this in two parts. So the first thing that I want to say is I had never considered doing associates until I was having a conversation with Jordan Gill and she was talking about building an associate program, but I thought she meant for my systems business.
And then when she said, no, no, no, I’m talking about your photography. I was like. Well, I’ve never really thought about that. And at this stage, I am just like you guys. I feel like my photography, the percentage is definitely shifting more towards systems than it is photography. But I think what all three of us will agree on is that basically we have put a lot of time and effort over the 10 plus years that we’ve been in business in order to really maximize our SEO.
And so we don’t have to put forth any more work to get the inquiries because the blog posts that we’ve been doing for the last 10 years. are still doing its job. And so when you get these inquiries that you don’t have capacity for, and that you don’t feel like you want to take on, maybe it’s something slightly different than, you know, what you are known for or what you currently want to pursue.
The question is, do you just let the return on your investment for the SEO just dwindle? Now, there is one other alternative that I will just put out there. And that’s like having a referral You know, program, whatever you want to call it with other photographers in the area. So if you know that there are people who are fantastic and about in the same price range as you, because you don’t want to take someone who just doesn’t want to pay your prices and send them to someone that’s half your cost.
I mean, that’s not a good use of your SEO, but if you are referring out and you are getting like a referral fee for every time that you’re sending them to them, you’re still monetizing the fact that you are getting the referrals and that you are sending them out. But you are not getting the headache and the extra management of people that you would need to do in order to run an associate program effectively.
Yep,
all reasonable things to consider. It is one of those things where you talk about it’s not even just blogging, right? I mean, I think about like, what I teach is. Everything that I’ve learned as a photographer for managing the process and, you know, sort of communicating with clients, all these things that people spend a lot of money to learn a lot of time to set up, they shed many tears in the process, trying to come up with, you know, and so I look at if I were a brand new photographer.
And a very well established photographer came to me and said, your work is great. You seem like a reliable person. How would you know, would you be interested in coming and working for me and not having to maintain a website and worry about your SEO and worry about how to find new clients or any of that sort of stuff?
I’m going to guarantee you X amount of work, or maybe that’s not part of the deal, but you know, I’m going to refer people to you. You’re going to work for me. You’re going to turn these photos in. I’m going to manage the rest of it. Like, I think I would have jumped on that. In a heartbeat because the rest of it just felt so it felt like a huge hill to climb now on the other side.
I’m like, no, no, I’m glad I learned all that stuff because it applies to so many other things, but it is, uh, it is, it takes a long time. I mean, the fact that the three of us are sitting here talking, having been in business each for more than a decade, it does. No matter what somebody is trying to sell you, it doesn’t
happen instantly.
It does not happen instantly, but I think that feels like another controversial topic that I often hear when I am trying to, and I don’t want to say the word convinced lightly, but when I am trying to educate people on the value of having a CRM and or just systems to where you have a repeatable process that you are doing with each client.
I mean, we were talking earlier about snowflakes, like you think that you’re the snowflake artist and that only you can do it. But I also think that there’s a little bit of no, I want. Each of my clients to have a high end custom feeling experience, and they just don’t think that making it consistent and repeatable is aligned with that high touch experience.
And so I feel like I spent a lot of time trying to convince the newbies. No, you really do need these systems, even if you barely have clients right now, because then when you get the clients, You don’t have to spend so much time managing them. So I think also that, you know, this associate kind of idea that we are discussing today would help with those because then they really wouldn’t need the systems like you would have the systems as a person that’s controlling or running the associate program and they are literally just.
Having a conversation with the client, showing up to photograph them and then turning in the photos at the end, like they don’t need to worry about any of the back ends, whether it’s collecting the money or managing the entire client experience from beginning to end.
That brought something up for me. Um, of course it did where, okay.
This drives me nuts. Like the idea that you can give better service if you create your system from scratch every single time versus having a system is bananas. Um, I have
a different word, but I’ll take bananas because that’s 1913. I
Think about like, let’s try and think of the most sort of over the top luxury experience you can possibly have.
Right. And I don’t, I mean, we could, we could brainstorm that, but just like off the top of my head, you know, think about showing up at some like very high end Hollywood a lister spa resort situation. Right. If you think that you walk in and they hand you champagne and a fluffy white robe and a whatever, and that’s not all written down in a handbook as like, step one, do this.
Step two, do this. This is how the towels are folded. This is how the such and such is folded. That’s, like, that’s exactly how those kinds of situations are created. They feel unique to you because It’s the first time that you’ve done it, or you go back and you’ve told your friend like, Oh, this is what’s going to happen.
And it’s going to be so great. Or just wait until we walk around this corner because then this new thing is going to happen. If you go and don’t do that, you’re disappointed. The only direction that it can go and be sustainable is up. So like, unless you think that you have the capacity as a business owner to show up the same or better every single time from scratch.
Which I think is again, bananas, um, then, uh, you know, it’s, it’s only going to come around to bite you.
Yeah, I would go as far to say, uh, that the only way that you can have a high end luxury, high touch experience is to have systems and workflows and automations in place. I don’t think it’s possible without those things.
Period. End of story. I want to switch to pricing now,
now that, now that someone has used the word luxury, let’s get into that. So everyone, in case you have not been following Sabrina’s Instagram, I feel like she’s been putting out quite a few, I don’t know. I read it and I’m almost reading it in like my own tone and I’m like, Ooh, I really wish I’d put that on my Instagram.
So instead we’re going to discuss it on this episode. But one of the things that she said, and I know all three of us love talking about pricing, which is why this is a really good thing to hit. It said, raising your prices should be the last thing that you do. And there’s a running joke, not only between the three of us, but like every single person that I have a conversation with that, if you wait 10 minutes, Coley is probably going to tell you to raise your prices.
I mean, guys, if you get told no. My answer is to raise your price. If you get told yes, too many times, my answer is to tell you to raise your price. There are a lot of times where raising your price is actually the answer. But then when Sabrina had this on her Instagram, I was like, okay. But I don’t say these other things that she said and they’re all still totally true.
So Sabrina, why is raising your price the last thing that you should do? And I’m going to literally look at the clock and see how long it takes you to say this magic word that’s in my head.
Oh dear. I don’t know what the magic word is my friends. So this could be a really long chat. Um, the, The premise that I put out on Instagram, cause I don’t know if you swiped, I don’t know if you swiped and read the post, but it was all about mindset and how, if you are not prepared for what is going to happen on the other side of raising your prices, all you’re going to do is immediately drop them back down.
Something that I try and prepare people for all the time is when you raise your prices, you’re going to get told no. And unfortunately we have, you know, there’s all these red flags. I did a podcast recently about like 10 red flags. It’s time to raise your prices. And like, like Coley said, there’s all kinds of reasons and signs that you need to raise them.
And oftentimes people hear those signs or they check the boxes and they’re like, Oh, awesome. I get to raise my prices and they get excited and then they start getting no’s. And then they immediately are like, okay, abort, abort, abort, drop them back down, offer a discount, try to negotiate with people, and they panic.
You have to be prepared. People are going to tell you no. And I think mentally, if you can be ready for that and steel yourself for that, you’re going to be better off. And then I always say, it just takes one yes. It just takes one. Yes, as you can get 10 no’s. But as soon as somebody says yes to your new price, you are now validated and justified and you don’t, you’re not gonna be scared anymore and you’re ready to run.
But it may take you a hot minute to get that. Yes,
I mean, I know you have thoughts. Did she say the word? I want to know.
Oh, I don’t know what the word is. I don’t either.
She’s skirting it, but it’s okay. We’re going to get there. I’m waiting for this lion
to drop out. Um, anyone who’s listening to this, who is younger than, I don’t know, 35, maybe you don’t know that phrase or that thing.
It was old school Nickelodeon anyway. So yeah, pricing, of course, it like with simple sales. When I teach people, they go through this big calculator process because I’m always like, it comes down to math. You enter your numbers, you know, figure this out. I’m not going to tell you to raise your prices. I’m going to let the math do that.
And sometimes people already have things set up in such a way that they are profitable and they don’t need to raise their prices. They just have to restructure their offer or something like that. But. Let’s be real. Eight times out of ten, it is a matter of like, you’re not priced in a sustainable fashion or a profitable fashion.
And so it’s time to raise your prices. And I agree, Sabrina, a hundred percent that it is all fine and good when you’re standing on the side of the pool, watching your friend jump off the high dive. You’re like, yeah, come on, do it. And then when you’re standing up there, it is real far is a big drop and it’s very scary.
And I totally get that. And there is that piece where. You have to mentally prepare yourself for the fact that it’s going to be uncomfortable and you have to get to a place where you are willing to say your prices and write them down and back them up and walk away when someone tells you Sorry, that’s out of budget or when five people tell you, sorry, that’s out of budget or 10 people, you really do have to commit to yourself.
And the reason that I like having people run the numbers is that I’m not just telling them to raise their prices. They’re seeing like, Oh, okay. If I continue on the way that I’m doing this right now, I’m going to be making less money than I would be making if I were working at a gas station, you know, as a gas station attendant or like a, whatever, I mean, some sort of job that anybody could go get.
I’m charging that same amount or making that same amount, doing this thing that’s really emotional and running a business is hard and all these different things. So, you know, I think that having at least grounding your, Knowledge of like, it’s time to raise my prices in a place that is like, I’ve been convinced because I’ve looked at these and this isn’t just somebody sort of spouting off.
It’s true, but it is scary.
I’m going to come back to I mean, because I’ve had many jobs, but I have never been a barista. I am sometimes super jealous of people who work at places like Starbucks because you go to work, you do your job. And you leave and you don’t give it a second thought until you go back the next day.
That is definitely not the life of an entrepreneur. And it’s funny to me. I think both of you were saying this idea, but neither one of you actually said the word, but it also I think speaks to the way that each of us educate, teach, and coach other entrepreneurs. Because Sabrina is all about mindset.
Annamie is all about the math. And while I rely on the math, I am really trying to get people to be confident. When they say the number out loud, so Sabrina’s talking about, you’re going to get nose and you have to be prepared for that. But I’m trying to prepare you to say the number out loud and be okay with that number in your own mind before you present it to someone else.
I always say, when we’re setting up your systems, if we put that number down on a proposal, it is easier to. Not allow you to try to negotiate because that’s the problem when you take things off the cuff and you have a conversation with someone you’re like, okay, my price is a thousand but like if I tell them that it’s 800 will they book me and it’s like this thing that you go in in your mind versus if you have a system and you have a process and you’re confident.
In knowing that your price is a thousand, that’s what you need to charge. That’s what your time is worth. That’s what your product is worth. All of those things. It makes it easier to present it and just hold the silence. Cause I think some of us feel the need to, you know, fill the silence with, well, this is why my price is a thousand and this is what you, I mean, and sometimes you end up talking them out of paying you, even if they intended to pay you.
So. Confidence was the word and I just feel like if more people could feel good about knowing that yes, we ran the numbers because I feel like on me sometimes people run their numbers through the calculator and they look at it and they still say those things like, but no one will pay that. Yeah. And my photography is not worth that.
And they could get this same thing down the road for half that price. And so building confidence helps you kind of go around all of these things. But and say, yes, I understand. I’m not competing on price with anyone. This is my, this is what I do. This is my client experience. This is what I deliver. And this is my price, period.
And then you hold the silence
there. There are so, I mean, price is a huge part of what I’m about to say, but being an entrepreneur is such a mind game. It is constantly a mind game, right? Like being able to not suffer imposter syndrome, being able to say you’re pricing confidently, being able to understand having people tell, you know, I mean, there’s so many things that it’s just, it’s a constant battle.
It’s a constant mind game, but I like to explain it to people like this. Just like on me said, when you have run your numbers and you know that you’re either losing money or you’re not profitable or you’re not allowed to pay yourself, it is what it is. It’s black and white. You have to raise your prices.
But when you think about it like this, if you are to imagine your favorite local business, Your favorite mom and pop coffee shop or boutique or florist or whoever fill in the blank, your favorite local business, the one that you go to all the time that you know the owner, that it just makes you so happy.
If you heard through the grapevine that that particular business was losing money, you would panic. You would be a little like, Oh my gosh, we have to save them. What are we going to do? You try and, you know, rally everybody to come. You would do anything possible. So why is it okay for you? Yeah. To be losing money or to not be profitable.
It’s not, we just take it so personal and it’s such a mind game, but at the end of the day, it’s business. It’s not personal. You have to be profitable. You have to be making a good wage for what you’re doing.
Yeah. And I am absolutely on board with that confidence piece to me. I just like to root that in you’re confident in it because it is tied to your thing.
I also think, and you were sort of touching on this, that practicing talking about it to just detach the emotion a little bit from, it’s not who you are. It’s not, you know, again, and you’ve all heard me spout off the mouth about like, stop talking about pricing your worth. Like that means that’s so silly.
Like we are all worth whatever, but like you have to price what your, you know, your business time, which is, No matter how much you like to work and it is limited by the number of hours in the day, you have to price that in a way that allows you to cover your bills, or you are eventually going to have to quit.
And to Sabrina’s point, like if you’re a favorite local coffee shop that you go to every day and you spend a dollar on a gorgeous latte that takes somebody, you know, 14 minutes to make, if, uh, if they’re going out of business, And because they refuse to up their prices to 4 for that latte or 6 for that latte and they can’t pay their people and they can’t buy the beans and they can’t do whatever.
Then who loses, they lose, but you lose as the consumer as well. So like, you know, again, there is, it is uncomfortable for a lot of us as artists to say, you know what, if I’m going to do this, this is the price. And I have to get real comfortable with that because until you are confident in it, until you are comfortable saying it, at least pretending to be comfortable with it, nobody’s going to.
Nobody’s going to buy it, which is the reason that when you first raise your prices, you often it’s one of the reasons that when you first raise your prices, you get hit with a flurry of no’s because
you’re not, you do that thing
where you say it’s 1, 500 question mark. What do you think? Huh? Yeah. I mean, you have to, you have to just look at it as the As though you are reading a script off a piece of paper, which I encourage people to do.
Like, yeah, even if that feels really dumb.
Yeah. There’s so much behind pricing psychology too. You know, anybody who has had a corporate job or been in business, I have that background for anybody that doesn’t know. I was a jewelry buyer for a long time and I have a master’s in merchandising. So I understand like retail and that kind of business world.
And The fact is people will pay any amount for anything as long as they see value in it. And here’s a little statement to stir the pot. You have to be profitable. You have to make a reasonable wage, but your work and your customer service experience need to align with what you’re charging because the general public will call BS if it’s not aligned.
And so, yes, I want you to be profitable. Yes, I want you to make awesome money because being an entrepreneur is hard, but you might have to. Work with an educator or go to a workshop or practice your editing skills or something because you cannot charge luxury pricing. Just because your numbers look that way, if your work and your customer service experience do not align with the final product.
And I feel like that’s where the consistency comes in. Like if your, if your client experience is awesome and consistent and you’re not dropping the ball, you’re not forgetting to send somebody a questionnaire. You’re not going over your promise due date to deliver the photos. All of those things are a big part of the client experience.
And that’s what. I want to help. I want to say it helps you justify your price tag because I think we’re all talking about. We don’t want you to have to justify it, but on the flip side of that, no one should question it like your client experience at the end of the day. They shouldn’t be like, Oh, wow. So I really overpaid for what I got.
Like, that is horrible, but you shouldn’t feel the need to justify how much you’re charging on the front end. I hope everyone sees. The difference in those 2 things. So are we good with pricing? I want to ask another question, but I want to make sure that we’ve, you know, fully covered the pricing, the mindset, the confidence, because I feel like all of us love to talk about this all day long.
Can I just say 1 thing about, Sabrina, you’re absolutely right. And I was thinking about the spa idea again. Like if you walk in and they hand you your fluffy robe and you open it up and it’s got a big stain on it, it’s going to like, you’re going to be like, what is happening? And from that moment forward, you are going to look with a critical eye at every piece of that experience.
So it is really important that as photographers, you’ve got a baseline amount of skill. And I think that that baseline is way more variable than we give it credit for. I have seen some really crappy technical, like people who don’t take great photos. But where everything else, like the experience and the whatever, that’s all really good.
That, that’s more subjective. But what really bugs me, or makes me sad really, is when I listen to photographers who are great. And it’s not that they’re Formally trained. And it’s not that they have a hundred years of experience. It’s not whatever, but they are really talented photographers. It’s the only reason that they ever considered going into business in the first place, sit there and be like, well, that’s not my work.
Isn’t worth that. I think it’s a dangerous thing. If you are confident enough in your work that you were willing to go file the paperwork and become a business owner, then we should take that piece. Or at least we should move it down. Like, yes, attend to your skills. Yes, make sure you know what you’re doing.
And if you have a situation where you show up for a session and you can’t deal with the lighting, or you can’t deal with the, you know, you messed up the settings on your camera, every once in a while, we all do that. But if that’s a persistent problem, yes, you need to address that. More often than not, I feel like it’s the experience side of things.
Yes,
I mean, which I think we should all come back and do this three way roundtable again and talk about client experience specifically.
Yeah.
Since we’ve gone on for 35 minutes now, I do want to bring it back around so that we each have an opportunity. We’re so far in. If you were starting your business again today, what would be most important to you or what would you do differently than you did the first time?
Hmm.
Okay. I mean, I’ll go first. I, I did everything wrong in the beginning. She admits that. I jumped in. So too early, like probably two years too soon. I jumped in. I just like we were talking about, I had no client experience. My editing was completely different from session to session. I pretty much didn’t know what I was doing.
I was still learning to be confident photographing in manual mode. I had never worked with anybody or taken any kind of class on posing. So I was just. figuring it out. And I recently looked up an old Facebook post because I wanted to see what I charged for my first mini sessions. Uh, I was curious and I wanted to be able to share it.
Are you ready for this drum roll, please? My very first mini sessions were 35. It was a one second shoot. I mean, you guys, I have, I have a photo of it. I have proof. From 2011. 35. Um, how much money was I losing on that? I mean, unbelievable. And then when I raised my prices, it was to 50. And I said yes to every single person that came to my door.
And I had the worst mindset. My mindset was literally, Oh my gosh, people are paying me money to take photos. Any amount of money is great. And it was a mess. It was an absolute hot mess. But if I were to take all of those mistakes. And lump them under one umbrella. What I see is that I waited way too long to learn from somebody to tell me what I should be doing correctly.
I waited two years and it was a disastrous two years. I’m really surprised I survived. It was a disastrous two years for so many reasons. And I’ve told this story over and over and over again, but as soon as I invested in education. And had somebody take me under their wing and work out all the kinks. Uh, it’s a black and white line in my business.
All of a sudden I’m profitable. My work is consistent. I love what I’m doing. I have a sustainable schedule. It’s it’s night and day. And I just think, why did I not do that sooner?
So why did you not do that sooner?
I was terrified.
It
was a huge investment. You can’t
spend money that you don’t think that you have, which is something that we talked about before we hit record.
Exactly.
And I, I was in that scarcity mindset, which is where a lot of people are when they’re starting out. You know, you bought this big expensive camera, maybe in my situation in our household, like. We were not doing great financially. So any amount of money I was bringing in was nice. Okay, let’s not lie.
It was nice. But the amount of hours that I was pouring in to learning Lightroom, learning how to edit, playing with presets, doing all these, creating my own website, like figuring all this stuff out. I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours. When I had a three year old and a one year old, you know, I missed out on so much stuff at the time and it’s just really sad that I was so stuck in, I can’t possibly invest several thousand dollars.
And of course I couldn’t, I was charging 35. You know what I mean? But it’s that, it was that mindset piece. It was that scarcity piece. And I really did have to get to a tipping point where I was so burned out and so fried. And I had a little tiny glimmer of hope that said, well, I’ve got a ton of clients and a ton of people who want to work with me and people like me.
And I have these great things going for me. Maybe I should take a risk and put my money where my mouth is and see if I can actually do this thing. And it was a huge investment at the time. I think it was like 2700 dollars or something, which was absolutely massive. But I pulled out the credit card. I did it and I mean it paid for itself almost instantly.
So you know,
as I listened to you, I think a lot about like what I was doing for the first several years of my business. The one thing I did right was I took a pricing course early on and it was cheap. I mean, I think I spent, I don’t know what I spent, it wasn’t that much, a hundred dollars or something. I also had another job at the same time.
Like I built my photography business while I was still working as a nurse. And the whole time that I was building it, I kept telling myself, this is what you want. This is your dream, but unless you can make this business. Make enough money to replace your income as a nurse. You can’t quit your job. And that was the, that was the thing, the fire that I lit under myself to be like, okay, we’re doing this.
I’m going to charge this amount of money. Let’s see. And I, I really do advocate for people who are in a financial, Like a financially precarious position, having other income that’s not tied to your ego where somebody else is paying you a paycheck while you’re trying to build your photography business is a really great way to remove some of the stress around it because it is hard when you’ve got like, are the lights going to be on next week?
It depends on whether this person books with me. That is a terrible call. Position to be trying to sell a session from like, you’re, you’re going to come across as desperate no matter what, because you are desperate the thing that you did, right? And the thing that I did, right? All these other things. I priced myself correctly.
And then I did a whole bunch of stuff wrong and was very like scarcity mindset around a lot of things. But the thing that I think we both did right was we kept betting on ourselves. So like make a mistake, get back up and say, you know what? Okay. Well, 35 seems like it was low. Maybe you didn’t make a big enough jump that first time, but you then you were like, okay, 50.
Okay. Whatever. And you got to the place. Where at some point you were like it’s now or never and you jumped off that high dive and I did the same thing in a few different places in my business that I can look at similar kind of like and here’s the line and then I crossed it. It was scary AF crossing that line.
And it’s the sort of thing that everybody’s situation is a little bit different. It’s never going to feel as hard when you’re watching somebody else do it as it is for you. But I guess I would say, and I know of course, Koli, cause I know your story too. Like we all have this shared experience as does every other person that I’ve known to be, not just in photography, but in any business as an entrepreneur for a long time, you have to, you have to believe that it’s worth it.
You have to believe in yourself and then you have to be willing to like do the scary thing
sometimes. Yes. Cause I feel like in the beginning of my, when I started my photography business, I didn’t have a job. Like I had quit teaching when I got pregnant and I had Chloe and then I spent three years basically being a stay at home wife slash nanny.
And then when I was like, okay, Chloe’s going to preschool, what am I going to do now? I always made sure that my pricing was profitable, but I wasn’t working enough to pay myself a salary, which I think is different. I was. I was making what I needed to make based on the amount of time that I had to put into the business.
And from the beginning, I wanted to make sure that my hourly rate. Was as much as James made, which I really wish that I could scream from the rooftops. If your husband makes 50 an hour, that is not what you need to make as an entrepreneur. You need to make something closer to 125 or 150 so that after you’ve paid taxes and after you’ve paid your expenses, that the actual hourly rate is similar.
But. I do really think that I did a lot of things right. The one thing that I wish I had done earlier or that I would start doing, you know, if I had to do it again, is that outsourcing piece. I didn’t get any of that outsourcing in place until I legitimately couldn’t see a computer screen, which was absolutely ridiculous.
Because then after I had somebody edit the sessions, I was like, you know what, that’s not too bad. This is something that you can train somebody else to do. And I mean, once I realized that, and it wasn’t so scary to just give up a little bit of control. I mean, you guys know now there is nothing that I won’t outsource.
Nothing. I mean, I, I have outsourced everything, including having someone come to a session with me and shoot the photos. But again, that was when I couldn’t literally see. So I don’t know if that counts. But I just feel like I wish that I had known the value of outsourcing and that I didn’t think that I was such a snowflake to where no one could edit like me, no one could shoot like me.
No one can answer people’s emails like me. All that is bullshit. You can have a folder, you can do SOPs, you can literally train anybody to do anything. And guess what? If they don’t get it right, it’s okay. It’s okay. Because then you can just give them feedback and have them do it again. So I guess my second piece of information that I would impart on someone else is that.
When you outsource, it will not be right the first time. Please stay with me. And then when it comes back the second time and the third time, it will get better. And eventually you will get to a place to where you’re outsourcing can be hands off. But the first time you do it, it’s not going to be that way.
And you need to have some time built in to account for the fact that it is going to have to get redone. By them, hopefully with some feedback from you. So that’s what I would do if I was starting again now.
Yeah. What you said about how for so long you were like, Oh, I’m the only one that can do this and this and this, that that’s part of that mind game piece.
Like starting a business, especially a creative one where it’s our vision coming to life. It’s us marketing to get clients. It’s us getting the feedback. It is so important. Personal that it’s the whole thing, start to finish. You constantly have to manage the story that’s going on in your brain. Are you getting in your own way?
Nine times out of 10 you are, you know, and learning how to manage that is really hard, but it’s important. It’s so important.
Well, and I feel like when I actually let go and I mean, I did realize that other people could create documentary photos just like me was when I was teaching that course for those four years.
I mean, the person who was one of the five people who paid me actual money for the first run of that course, she ended up becoming one of my best friends and she has photographed my family a couple times. And the first time that she photographed us. I literally taught her how to make a film and how to video because I wanted a film of my own family and there was no one for me to hire.
And once she did it and she sent me the film, I sent her back three things. Can you just change these three tiny things? And she changed it. And I was like, well, shit, I could have made that film. That’s when I realized I am not a snowflake. Anybody can do what I do. If I explain to them, you know what it is that I do and how I like it.
But I mean, also. All of us are artists. All of us have gifts. And so even if someone doesn’t do it exactly like I would, it’s okay. It doesn’t mean that my art is better than their art or that their art is better than my art. It’s just different art. So, yeah.
So what do you think would be, if you could give somebody a piece of advice, like if they’re hearing this and they’re like, okay guys, I know I need to finally outsource, but they’re, they’re nervous.
They’re scared. Like how do they get, how do they get off the diving board?
Well, it’s currently may. Hopefully this episode goes live in June. You still have time before fall. I would say immediately. Look, if editing is your nemesis, because again, we are all like outsource your editing. But maybe that’s not the part that you want to give up.
Whatever is giving you the most stress in your business is what you need to find a way to outsource. And I just think the bit of advice that I would give is number one, figure out what your budget is. Number two, make it work inside of your current prices so that you are not paying for this outsourcing out of your profit.
You’re paying for it out of the revenue. And then the third thing is just make sure that you have enough time to get it done and get it right before you enter your busy season, whenever that is.
I feel like I, Didn’t entirely answer the question about like what I would do differently and I’m just going to say it really quickly because it rolls into the like, this is how I would.
This is what I would say. So, Sabrina, you’re talking about education. Cole. You’re talking about outsourcing. I’m just going to put the, if there’s a, like, golden triangle for this. The 3rd 1 is systems and we’ve touched on it and I’ve talked about it, but like. I feel like the better I get at business if I am to look at one thing about it, and it it ties into both of the other.
Sometimes the system includes. pieces that are outsourced. Often you have to have somebody show you how to set up a system, or it’s a lot faster to have somebody show you how to set up a system. But if you feel any part of your business feels chaotic, start there. Like, find the piece that feels the hardest, the most chaotic, the most, gives you the most friction, the thing that you procrastinate about, the thing that you, you know, feel insecure about.
And systematize that thing and get that locked in written down because everything else as far as I’m concerned in business kind of flows from there. You can identify the problems. You can identify the things that you can outsource. You can train the people that you’re outsourcing to. If you don’t have a procedure for something, you need it.
And does anybody else think it’s weird that Automy is the one that said systems and not me? It’s okay though, I knew she was going to mention systems at some point. And I just want to point out that while I am constantly talking about systems and your client experience and things that you can do inside of CRM, That is not the definition of a system.
A system is just a process that you have this repeatable that you’re doing over and over again. So guys, whenever I say systems or when Anami is talking about systems, we’re not actually just talking about a CRM. Like we’re not talking about what you can automate inside a tool. Systems and processes are such a bigger piece of the puzzle than what you can put into software.
Yeah, it’s literally a series of steps. So a system can be as simple as a checklist on a piece of paper. Yes.
All right, guys. How do you feel about this conversation? Was it good? I think we should do it again. I think it was good. I
do not envy you the task of coming up with a title for this.
Can I share a secret?
Hi, Haley. I don’t make titles anymore. Oh, there you go. So I mean, and she’s actually just going to be glad that I now have something for my anniversary episode. So it’s all good. Haley, you’re welcome. Three different people to edit this time. I love you. No, this is really
fun. I think we should definitely do it again.
Yeah. All right.
Congrats again.
Thank you. Listening audience, if you would like to hear the three of us do it again, why don’t you pop into any of our DMs on Instagram and we would love to hear from you. But Sabrina and Anami, thank you so much for coming on. I mean, I’ve always been scared of doing like multiple conversations because I’m that person that’s constantly trying to make sure I’m not talking over someone.
So this worked really well. So I’m very happy and we are going to do it again. Yay. Thanks for having us. All right, everyone. That’s it for this episode. See you next time.
Thanks for listening to the business first creatives podcast. For more information on this podcast, including show notes and links to the video podcast, please visit coleyjames. com slash podcast. Are you loving the podcast? Sharing is caring until next time.
